The high cost of Rafale and EF can probably be attributed to lower numbers. That's one thing Yankees always had going for them. They make most of their weapons in huge numbers, scale of production is very important to them at any level, heck they even sell whole chicken for less than $1 per lb, and eggs can be bought for less than $1 per dozen (of course not organic eggs). The huge scale of manufacturing is what make a product cost less, in case of the european fighters, the scale is what they lack… but I hope the number India purchases, helps to bring down the cost for the IAF, of course it cannot be anywhere close to what Yanks may have offered, but then hopefully it will not come with the strings that yanks attach to their products. Only time will tell if this was a good decision or not.
Once the dust has settled and Americans are more approachable, Desh should send an RFI for the Growlers. Two squads with arial refuelling can give our combat aircraft some solid set of teeth. Not sure if Amreeka would agree, but IAF wouldn't mind them even with CISOMA++. DRDO can do the needful after that 😉 Maybe, maybe the contract could be split between Rafale and Europhiter. Rafale with its ground attack capability and Europhiter as escorts and a couple of MKI's tossed in good measure would be a sight to behold indeed. 😀 Jingo Dreams!!
Is rafale may come with some advantages over Typhoon… 1)Transferring 100% ToT of AESA too.. 2)Comes with 2 seat (IAF Favorite)variant. 3)Naval version is already combat proved along with regular one. 4)Easy to use with existing mirage fleet. 5)If deal sign at the end of fiscl year AESA will be activated and operational.. 6)Currently uses tween Snecma M88 engines develops 50 kN/75 kN thrust but can be fitted with Kaveri engines in future (90—95 KN thrust)also More powerful kaveri engine is also proposed for AMCA which reduces dependency on different power stations and their maintenance. 7)Dassault may help us to develop AMCA because Typhoon users waits for F-35 as 5th Gen Fighters. 8)Dassault also help us in AURA project. 9)Along with these technical advantages political advantage may consider as controlling four nation a product is more complicate than controlling one product by one nation in future there is no need to please four countries in future…. Please correct me if I am wrong
While considering the extra distance EC and Dassault would be willing to travel, Rafale would be a much better choice. Especially for the fact that bagging the deal for France, is even more important, ensuring further development of the potent platform. But, will they be able to provide AESA on time?
Shiv, now when both the fighters have cleared technical evaluations, what will decide the winner? Lowest bid?
@Rahul… Their commercial proposals will be reviewed. And if process is followed (no reason to believe it wont), then price negotiation committee will be opened with the lowest bidder for the final contract. i also feel it would be rafale 🙂
Get real, bro. There are no permanent friends and enemies in this world. Pakistan repeatedly back-stabs US and there is no overt retaliation. Pakistan is needed and that settles the matter.
I don't see any reason for the US to deny arms to India as long we are paying for them and it keeps US worker employed. There is no place for ego in such matters.
I have read a lot of op-ed pieces on why the US will be angry and there will be dark clouds over our relationship, etc. In not one of these articles does the author point out that we have rejected superior fighters. Vague arguments with respect to their use in AFs around the world and battle experience are trotted out. Older platforms have this advantage by default but this does not make them the best choice today. The crux of the argument is that we should have paid USD 11 billion to keep the relationship warm. Sorry Charlie, but that is a very expensive friendship. We are neither that rich nor that needy. Try Saudi Arabia for such deals.
If US resorts to sulking over rejection in this deal then the only people to benefit will be the French and Russians. Guess who will end up looking like a fool?
It was a very shallow analysis of what had happened. It was in fact a shallow, shabby performance.
Raja Menon had nothing much to add but repeat the same point over and over again. In fact he even suggested that we get equity stake in SAAB and get technology. Wow!
Hardly surprising he pushed the case of SAAB. Vishnu had his flight in the Gripen. He was returning the favor, I guess. He could have suggested buying out MiG instead or LM or Boeing. If we are flying kites then why limit. Why call such 'experts' on the show? Simply because they are available?
The right questions were not asked and the audience were never given the complete picture.
Readers of your blog are obviously better informed. You don't need to share with us the link of this program. You need to ask Vishnu to read your blog regularly. 🙂
A Rafale win in India will certainly have an impact on fighter competitions in Brazil and the UAE which could also be prospective Rafale customers but have in the recent past tilted towards the F-A-18 Super Hornet.
Now Rafale will win the race because for low bid.. because rafale is less costly than EF… Aircraft. And in MMRCA Low bid will win the MMRCA bid…. So at last India is going to bag Rafale… MMRCA Winner is Rafale… I am for sure.. Also Support of Mirage upgrades will help by France… This is for sure…. "MMRCA WINNER IS RAFALE."
Anonymous @ 12:13 you took the words out of my mouth. such ridicolus NDTV advertorials have no place on this high quality blog. ( shiv hope your reading this )
Vishnu Som and NDTV – the most useless discussion – waste of 20 mins of my and your useful time. The dude Vishnu does not understand anything at all. NDTV – is a huge lobby organization.
Please stop staying that Rafale is under development!! It's bullshit as it's in service since 2000 and combat proven in Afghanistan and Libya!! There are different standards available (F1, F2, F3) but it's NOT an Xperimental aircraft guys! Otherwhise you should also consider F16 as under dev!! 😉
Dear Jingos … the show identified the winners, the losers, unanswered questions (how neither of the winners had an ASEA), how the deal affected the balance of power in the region (albeit in a brief manner … I was out of time), with discussion from an expert and an observer on the deal … FYI, the Gripen NG is not the only jet I have flown … What the show did not do was categorically question the tender process and the argument that (a) The decision to let the IAF have its way in the deal WAS a political decision and (b) Question whether the tendering process was as transparent as the Indian Air Force makes it out to be. I personally think both the Rafale and the Eurofighter are BRILLIANT aircraft … thats not it doubt .. but surely, as independent media, we have the right to question the process of the downselect which was done quite mildly. Questioning the tendering process and the grounds for rejection for the other jets DOES NOT mean I am anti-national … Quite the contrary … Vishnu Som, Associate Editor, NDTV
buying kid(IAF) what he wants n not what the parent(gov) wants. great!
The high cost of Rafale and EF can probably be attributed to lower numbers. That's one thing Yankees always had going for them. They make most of their weapons in huge numbers, scale of production is very important to them at any level, heck they even sell whole chicken for less than $1 per lb, and eggs can be bought for less than $1 per dozen (of course not organic eggs). The huge scale of manufacturing is what make a product cost less, in case of the european fighters, the scale is what they lack… but I hope the number India purchases, helps to bring down the cost for the IAF, of course it cannot be anywhere close to what Yanks may have offered, but then hopefully it will not come with the strings that yanks attach to their products. Only time will tell if this was a good decision or not.
Once the dust has settled and Americans are more approachable, Desh should send an RFI for the Growlers. Two squads with arial refuelling can give our combat aircraft some solid set of teeth. Not sure if Amreeka would agree, but IAF wouldn't mind them even with CISOMA++. DRDO can do the needful after that 😉
Maybe, maybe the contract could be split between Rafale and Europhiter. Rafale with its ground attack capability and Europhiter as escorts and a couple of MKI's tossed in good measure would be a sight to behold indeed. 😀
Jingo Dreams!!
Is rafale may come with some advantages over Typhoon…
1)Transferring 100% ToT of AESA too..
2)Comes with 2 seat (IAF Favorite)variant.
3)Naval version is already combat proved along with regular one.
4)Easy to use with existing mirage fleet.
5)If deal sign at the end of fiscl year AESA will be activated and operational..
6)Currently uses tween Snecma M88 engines develops 50 kN/75 kN thrust but can be fitted with Kaveri engines in future (90—95 KN thrust)also More powerful kaveri engine is also proposed for AMCA which reduces dependency on different power stations and their maintenance.
7)Dassault may help us to develop AMCA because Typhoon users waits for F-35 as 5th Gen Fighters.
8)Dassault also help us in AURA project.
9)Along with these technical advantages political advantage may consider as controlling four nation a product is more complicate than controlling one product by one nation in future there is no need to please four countries in future…. Please correct me if I am wrong
While considering the extra distance EC and Dassault would be willing to travel, Rafale would be a much better choice. Especially for the fact that bagging the deal for France, is even more important, ensuring further development of the potent platform. But, will they be able to provide AESA on time?
Shiv, now when both the fighters have cleared technical evaluations, what will decide the winner? Lowest bid?
@Rahul… Their commercial proposals will be reviewed. And if process is followed (no reason to believe it wont), then price negotiation committee will be opened with the lowest bidder for the final contract. i also feel it would be rafale 🙂
hi can we have another audience poll regarding which bird will get selected, that will be interesting. thanx.
MMRCA maybe almost over, but we still have the competition for naval jets. Here I will root for F35B and C.
The Americans aren't going to give you anything after the C-17 is done. Mark my words.
@Arun & Rahul : Nothing more to say, you hv elaborate everythng …. RAFALE is the best choice on every front.
AESA radar for Rafale visble on this link
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-75008.aspx
Anonymous @ 9:03 AM
Get real, bro. There are no permanent friends and enemies in this world. Pakistan repeatedly back-stabs US and there is no overt retaliation. Pakistan is needed and that settles the matter.
I don't see any reason for the US to deny arms to India as long we are paying for them and it keeps US worker employed. There is no place for ego in such matters.
I have read a lot of op-ed pieces on why the US will be angry and there will be dark clouds over our relationship, etc. In not one of these articles does the author point out that we have rejected superior fighters. Vague arguments with respect to their use in AFs around the world and battle experience are trotted out. Older platforms have this advantage by default but this does not make them the best choice today. The crux of the argument is that we should have paid USD 11 billion to keep the relationship warm. Sorry Charlie, but that is a very expensive friendship. We are neither that rich nor that needy. Try Saudi Arabia for such deals.
If US resorts to sulking over rejection in this deal then the only people to benefit will be the French and Russians. Guess who will end up looking like a fool?
Shiv,
I saw that program on TV live.
It was a very shallow analysis of what had happened. It was in fact a shallow, shabby performance.
Raja Menon had nothing much to add but repeat the same point over and over again. In fact he even suggested that we get equity stake in SAAB and get technology. Wow!
Hardly surprising he pushed the case of SAAB. Vishnu had his flight in the Gripen. He was returning the favor, I guess. He could have suggested buying out MiG instead or LM or Boeing. If we are flying kites then why limit. Why call such 'experts' on the show? Simply because they are available?
The right questions were not asked and the audience were never given the complete picture.
Readers of your blog are obviously better informed. You don't need to share with us the link of this program. You need to ask Vishnu to read your blog regularly. 🙂
A Rafale win in India will certainly have an impact on fighter competitions in Brazil and the UAE which could also be prospective Rafale customers but have in the recent past tilted towards the F-A-18 Super Hornet.
Now Rafale will win the race because for low bid.. because rafale is less costly than EF… Aircraft. And in MMRCA Low bid will win the MMRCA bid…. So at last India is going to bag Rafale… MMRCA Winner is Rafale… I am for sure.. Also Support of Mirage upgrades will help by France… This is for sure…. "MMRCA WINNER IS RAFALE."
Anonymous @ 12:13
you took the words out of my mouth. such ridicolus NDTV advertorials have no place on this high quality blog. ( shiv hope your reading this )
rafale cost less than eurofighter…thought it was the other way round…
Vishnu Som and NDTV – the most useless discussion – waste of 20 mins of my and your useful time. The dude Vishnu does not understand anything at all. NDTV – is a huge lobby organization.
Please stop staying that Rafale is under development!! It's bullshit as it's in service since 2000 and combat proven in Afghanistan and Libya!! There are different standards available (F1, F2, F3) but it's NOT an Xperimental aircraft guys! Otherwhise you should also consider F16 as under dev!! 😉
Dear Jingos … the show identified the winners, the losers, unanswered questions (how neither of the winners had an ASEA), how the deal affected the balance of power in the region (albeit in a brief manner … I was out of time), with discussion from an expert and an observer on the deal … FYI, the Gripen NG is not the only jet I have flown … What the show did not do was categorically question the tender process and the argument that (a) The decision to let the IAF have its way in the deal WAS a political decision and (b) Question whether the tendering process was as transparent as the Indian Air Force makes it out to be. I personally think both the Rafale and the Eurofighter are BRILLIANT aircraft … thats not it doubt .. but surely, as independent media, we have the right to question the process of the downselect which was done quite mildly. Questioning the tendering process and the grounds for rejection for the other jets DOES NOT mean I am anti-national … Quite the contrary … Vishnu Som, Associate Editor, NDTV