There we go again. Why the hell is the whole world trying to screw us again and again. We must become self sufficient if we have to put an end to all this nonsense.
Is it always being a joke that Arms procurement in India. Any single deals of weapon is not clear there is always any scandal or delay in weapons procurement like Bofors, U-204 German submarine, Aircraft Carrier, Indigenous ATV project etc.
And to i am reading on shiv's blog that Scorpene Submarine project to facing technological errors in India. Pakistan Navy signed the Agosta-90B Submarine deal in mid 90's and in 9 to 10 year's they to acquires all the three subs and planning to acquires 6 U-214 from Germany.
Technology transfer is good in the short run. But, I am worried that India is loosing much knowledge by not doing things by themself. Also, knowledge gained by doing things yourself can be transferred to other projects. BTW, there is a lot to be learned by trying and failing.
The X rudder configuration was first developed by Kockums for the Gotland – so nothing new there. What is so special about the X rudder in India's Scorpene class of submarines? Which modern conventional submarine does not come with a X rudder?
Fyi, the most capable class of conventional submarine in Asia belongs to the Japanese Maritime Self-Defence Force (JMSDF) with their Soryu class (a follow-on to the very well regarded Oyashio class). At 84 m long and 4,200-tons submerged, Soryu is significantly larger than the original 11 Oyashio-class boats (81 m and 3,500 tons), in order to incorporate a Kockums Stirling air independent propulsion (AIP) system. India's got a long way to go.
-9 years of building for a single sub and so much trouble?-
9 years for building a single conventional submarine seems far too much. What are you speaking about exactly? If what you say is true, there is a problem within India's industry. Currently, there seems to be some friction over the technology transfer agreement but I wouldn't call this event "so much trouble". The Scorpene deal was signed in 2005 and the subs are being built in India presently. So, we will see how these Scorpene compare to the previous ones.
Lastly, concerning the Rafale, I don't think it is the most expensive plane in the MMRCA, and the Rafale can perform more roles at a much longer range than other planes in the tender, and also it has less strings attached than others planes in the MMRCA. The IAF was satisfied with the performance of the Mirage 2000 and its weapon system during the Kargil war (Tiger Hill and Muntho Dhalo strike operations), so it makes sense to get the Rafale which will bring its numerous capabilities and new qualities to the IAF.
its weapon system during the Kargil war (Tiger Hill and Muntho Dhalo strike operations), so it makes sense to get the Rafale which will bring its numerous capabilities and new qualities to the IAF ———————————— only reason IAF likes m2000
in kargil war only m2000 had LGB capability and since then su30mki and jaguar and soon upgraded mig29 too will have this capability
rafale is costlier than mki and mki is superior to rafale in both air to air and air to ground
We Indian can't even build a bridge properly, look at accident in Delhi today with Metro. To think we can build a submarine "indigeniously" is rich. We need foreign help every step of the way. That's the reality.
You said it took India 9 years to build a single conventional submarine, what exactly did you meant ?
-only reason IAF likes m2000 in kargil war only m2000 had LGB capability and since then su30mki and jaguar and soon upgraded mig29 too will have this capability-
IAF pilots love the Mirage 2000 because it served them well into combats and the Mirage 2000 brought new capabilities that other IAF aircrafts didn' have at the time of the war (hence the timing is always important). If India gets Rafale, IAF pilots will love the plane even more because it will bring even more new capabilities and endurance that current IAF aircrafts don't have.
-rafale is costlier than mki and mki is superior to rafale in both air to air and air to ground-
Your comparison is useless. MMRCA's contenders (Rafale, EF, F-16 In, SH, JAS39 Ng) shouldn't be compared with the Su 30 mki but with the IAF aircrafts that will be replaced after the tender, the purpose of the MMRCA winner is to fit a different role than the mki. If the Su-30 mki satisfied all the requirements of the Indian Air Force, there would be no MMRCA competition.
Now that you brought the mki into this. As far as air-to air effectivness is concerned, the balance will shift in favor of the eurocanards as soon as the missile meteor will enter service (2013-2014). Russian jets and american jets will have nothing to counter balance this aerial superiority weapon. All non-stealth aircrafts will be vulnerable to the meteor.
If India gets Rafale, IAF pilots will love the plane even more because it will bring even more new capabilities and endurance that current IAF aircrafts don't have. ———————————— really,
which new capabilities rafale will bring which mki or upgraded mig29 or upgraded jaguar can't do
right now mirge2000 is just good for LGB but this advantage too have vanished since jagaur,mki acquired LGB capability
and don't ask m2000 air to air capability right now its inferior to current mig29 and even after upgrading it will be inferior to upgraded mig29 in BVR since r77 is better than mica
as if there will be no russian or US ramjet or as if rafale is stealthy
which new capabilities rafale will bring which mki or upgraded mig29 or upgraded jaguar can't do –
A lot ! —————————– rafale carry just 6 mica even r77 is better and su30mki carry 8-10 r77,mig29 will carry 6 r77
rafale carry only 6 230kg LGB
while su30mki carry 6 500kg bombs
and even jagaur carry 3 230kg LGB
and mig29 after upgrade will carry 4 kab500 LGB
no anti radiation missile on rafale,
while mki carry 6 kh31p and mig29 will carry 4 kh31p
rafale carry 2 apache missiles while mki carry 2 kh59 and will carry 2-3 brahmos ——————————- both russians and americans have active development of ramjet missiles,as far as ramjet r77 is concerned its been test fire from ground only.
Su 30 mki is heavier version , MMRCA is for medium weight version .rafale is not superior to mki . advantage As per rafale it is offered with 100% tot ( software source code ) and the only aircraft in mmrca deals – mentioned can carry nuclear weapons, no other aircraft has mentioned about this capable . Metorer in rafale & Euro fighter has 100 kms in air to air role , but Pakistan has AIM 120c with 105 kms in AAm and china have more than has we have , so india should try to get longer range like R-27 M1 AAm ( 175 km with Mig35) or AIM120D( 165kms AAm with F-18 / F16) in MMRCA
It is the Dutch that started with the x-rudders, not the Americans. The Americans just tested the Dutch designs but could not find a solution to problems they kept having. Nor did the Dutch give up that secret. Germany also tried out this technology, but failed until now. Currently the only navy's that use this successfully are the Dutch, German and Italian navy's.
There is however another nation that is working on completing their new submarine class with this x-rudder design, which is the Japanese. Unfortunately no names or pictures of these new ships so far I know
There we go again. Why the hell is the whole world trying to screw us again and again. We must become self sufficient if we have to put an end to all this nonsense.
scorpene has a nice ass 😛
after spending 3.5 billion and 9 years of building for a single sub and so much trouble?
and what about rafale? so costly but gives little
Is it always being a joke that Arms procurement in India. Any single deals of weapon is not
clear there is always any scandal or delay in weapons procurement like Bofors, U-204 German submarine, Aircraft Carrier, Indigenous ATV project etc.
And to i am reading on shiv's blog that Scorpene Submarine project to facing technological errors in India. Pakistan Navy signed the Agosta-90B Submarine deal in mid 90's and in 9 to 10 year's they to acquires all the three subs and planning to acquires 6 U-214 from Germany.
Technology transfer is good in the short run. But, I am worried that India is loosing much knowledge by not doing things by themself. Also, knowledge gained by doing things yourself can be transferred to other projects. BTW, there is a lot to be learned by trying and failing.
The X rudder configuration was first developed by Kockums for the Gotland – so nothing new there. What is so special about the X rudder in India's Scorpene class of submarines? Which modern conventional submarine does not come with a X rudder?
Fyi, the most capable class of conventional submarine in Asia belongs to the Japanese Maritime Self-Defence Force (JMSDF) with their Soryu class (a follow-on to the very well regarded Oyashio class). At 84 m long and 4,200-tons submerged, Soryu is significantly larger than the original 11 Oyashio-class boats (81 m and 3,500 tons), in order to incorporate a Kockums Stirling air independent propulsion (AIP) system. India's got a long way to go.
Chile’s Navy Scorpene detailed CGI cutaway
Are we having a different rudder?
-9 years of building for a single sub and so much trouble?-
9 years for building a single conventional submarine seems far too much. What are you speaking about exactly?
If what you say is true, there is a problem within India's industry.
Currently, there seems to be some friction over the technology transfer agreement but I wouldn't call this event "so much trouble".
The Scorpene deal was signed in 2005 and the subs are being built in India presently. So, we will see how these Scorpene compare to the previous ones.
Lastly, concerning the Rafale, I don't think it is the most expensive plane in the MMRCA, and the Rafale can perform more roles at a much longer range than other planes in the tender, and also it has less strings attached than others planes in the MMRCA.
The IAF was satisfied with the performance of the Mirage 2000 and its weapon system during the Kargil war (Tiger Hill and Muntho Dhalo strike operations), so it makes sense to get the Rafale which will bring its numerous capabilities and new qualities to the IAF.
To anonymous @ 11:58 pm….
Go screw yourself u pervert!!! LOL!!
its weapon system during the Kargil war (Tiger Hill and Muntho Dhalo strike operations), so it makes sense to get the Rafale which will bring its numerous capabilities and new qualities to the IAF
————————————
only reason IAF likes m2000
in kargil war only m2000 had LGB capability and since then su30mki and jaguar and soon upgraded mig29 too will have this capability
rafale is costlier than mki and mki is superior to rafale in both air to air and air to ground
We Indian can't even build a bridge properly, look at accident in Delhi today with Metro. To think we can build a submarine "indigeniously" is rich. We need foreign help every step of the way. That's the reality.
You said it took India 9 years to build a single conventional submarine, what exactly did you meant ?
-only reason IAF likes m2000
in kargil war only m2000 had LGB capability and since then su30mki and jaguar and soon upgraded mig29 too will have this capability-
IAF pilots love the Mirage 2000 because it served them well into combats and the Mirage 2000 brought new capabilities that
other IAF aircrafts didn' have at the time of the war (hence the timing is always important).
If India gets Rafale, IAF pilots will love the plane even more because it will bring even more new capabilities and endurance
that current IAF aircrafts don't have.
-rafale is costlier than mki and mki is superior to rafale in both air to air and air to ground-
Your comparison is useless. MMRCA's contenders (Rafale, EF, F-16 In, SH, JAS39 Ng) shouldn't be compared with the Su 30 mki
but with the IAF aircrafts that will be replaced after the tender, the purpose of the MMRCA winner is to fit a different role than the mki.
If the Su-30 mki satisfied all the requirements of the Indian Air Force, there would be no MMRCA competition.
Now that you brought the mki into this. As far as air-to air effectivness is concerned, the balance will shift in favor of the eurocanards as soon
as the missile meteor will enter service (2013-2014). Russian jets and american jets will have nothing to counter balance this aerial
superiority weapon. All non-stealth aircrafts will be vulnerable to the meteor.
If India gets Rafale, IAF pilots will love the plane even more because it will bring even more new capabilities and endurance
that current IAF aircrafts don't have.
————————————
really,
which new capabilities rafale will bring which mki or upgraded mig29 or upgraded jaguar can't do
right now mirge2000 is just good for LGB but this advantage too have vanished since jagaur,mki acquired LGB capability
and don't ask m2000 air to air capability right now its inferior to current mig29 and even after upgrading it will be inferior to upgraded mig29 in BVR since r77 is better than mica
as if there will be no russian or US ramjet or as if rafale is stealthy
-which new capabilities rafale will bring which mki or upgraded mig29 or upgraded jaguar can't do –
A lot !
-as if there will be no russian or US ramjet or as if rafale is stealthy-
They have none, only the European meteor is an active project (2013-2014).
which new capabilities rafale will bring which mki or upgraded mig29 or upgraded jaguar can't do –
A lot !
—————————–
rafale carry just 6 mica even r77 is better and su30mki carry 8-10 r77,mig29 will carry 6 r77
rafale carry only 6 230kg LGB
while su30mki carry 6 500kg bombs
and even jagaur carry 3 230kg LGB
and mig29 after upgrade will carry 4 kab500 LGB
no anti radiation missile on rafale,
while mki carry 6 kh31p and mig29 will carry 4 kh31p
rafale carry 2 apache missiles while mki carry 2 kh59 and will carry 2-3 brahmos
——————————-
both russians and americans have active development of ramjet missiles,as far as ramjet r77 is concerned its been test fire from ground only.
do some research on ur own on this
http://i18.tinypic.com/3y839y1.jpg
Rafale has a lot of capabilities that Su30 mki, jaguar and Mig29 don't have. And it is developping new ones.
Russian and american ramjet projects are inactive, no fundings.
Hi Shiv,
We are yet to read your updated report regarding the alledged trouble brewing over the Scorpene technology transfer agreement; what gives ?
Su 30 mki is heavier version , MMRCA is for medium weight version .rafale is not superior to mki . advantage As per rafale it is offered with 100% tot ( software source code ) and the only aircraft in mmrca deals – mentioned can carry nuclear weapons, no other aircraft has mentioned about this capable . Metorer in rafale & Euro fighter has 100 kms in air to air role , but Pakistan has AIM 120c with 105 kms in AAm and china have more than has we have , so india should try to get longer range like R-27 M1 AAm ( 175 km with Mig35) or AIM120D( 165kms AAm with F-18 / F16) in MMRCA
It is the Dutch that started with the x-rudders, not the Americans. The Americans just tested the Dutch designs but could not find a solution to problems they kept having. Nor did the Dutch give up that secret. Germany also tried out this technology, but failed until now. Currently the only navy's that use this successfully are the Dutch, German and Italian navy's.
There is however another nation that is working on completing their new submarine class with this x-rudder design, which is the Japanese. Unfortunately no names or pictures of these new ships so far I know