Mileage kitna deti hai bhai ?? Jokes apart, looks pretty ok to me. Has a large nose cone to accomodate an aesa if the need arises. Looks like a decent plane to qualify as a gap filler in large numbers.
still our lca looking for better engine , wing modification , radar jf17 going forward very rapidly
if jf17 get same foreign support as lca tejas like 98kt engine aesa radar better avionics it will beat tejas by the time lca mk2 achieve foc we may see 150+jf17mk2 thats for sure
Comments are fine, but Pakistan is selling its products in the World fair in China and now posing it's so called jointly developed Fighter in Farnborough.
Our Air chief's have also said it seems to be a decent fighter, also gives Pakistan more expertise in Fighters. Atleast a new batch altogether.
What is India's representation at Farnborough this time.
Looks like good fighter, don't know real capabilities. May be its chinease copy of f-16 and paki's are fasting scew's on it, but its there in the market for sale. Once they get decent orders they will improve it like russian's improved there su-30 based on IAF inputs, LCA is no where in market.
pakis r so proud of this piece of junk… so why is it the chinese have yet to induct it?? if this plane is sooo good, why it has no place in PLAAF? haha shows it is a piece of crap specially for the pakis… the chinese dont wanna say they dont want it, so they r saying trials blah blah…. once the pakis have paid up for 150+ units, chinese will officially say "this sux"..
and to the paki above, what is in the JF17 which is Paki? i bet even the nuts and bolts are from China. Oh maybe the paint job maybe of Paki origin, but yet again Paint will be made in China. I can name u at least 20 different critical components in Tejas which is of Indian origin.
Vajpayee and Bush are sitting in a bar. A guy walks in and asks the bar man, "Isn't that Bush and Vajpayee?" The bar man says "Yep, that's them." So the guy walks over and says, "Hello, what are you guys doing?" Bush says, "We're planning world war 3" The guy says, "Really? What's going to happen?" And Vajpayee says, "Well, we're going to kill 14 million Pakistanis and one bicycle repairman." And the guy exclaimed, "A bicycle repairman?!" Vajpayee turns to Bush and says, "See, I told you no-one would worry about the 14 million Pakistanis!"
We are superior in all respects to Pakistan and that may be a fact but ordinary people in Pakistan are just like us – pawns at the hands of politicians. Let us appreciate the fact that many ordinay Pakistani citizens work in their armament / ordinance / aircraft factories ..maybe assembling from crates yet there is some engineering effort behind it.
Unless we stop slandering each other the arms race will continue and this is detrimental to our society – whether on this side of border or the other side.
Whatever we say at least it enjoys more support from their folks. What is the use of a superior Tejas if the forces do not induct them in large numbers (350-400 planes at least)?
This is just a Mig-21 with intakes shifted to the sides, the same aluminum alloy,wing design the avionics are not advanced either, its truly a 3rd generation aircraft!
Tejas is 4th generation with its avionics,composites and improving engines.
Shiv, you run a great blog. Got to love the word "Paki" you put in as bait. Shiv even by your standards (digging the dirt on the USAF anti-flanker Colonel, remember?), this is pretty low.
The Chinese aren't inducting the FC-1/JF-17 yet because they are waiting for their WS-13 engine to reach maturity so that they do not need to rely on the Russian RD-93 engine. Last I heard, a test plane fitted with the WS-13 engine is undergoing tests, while the WS-13 itself has been certified since 2007 with serial production starting in 2009, also the WS-13 is supposed to give about 5-10% more thrust than the RD-93 and an improved version of WS-13 capable of 100kt thrust is under development. Expect WS-13 powered JF-17/FC-1's in the next 2 years.
Lack of humility and scorn for others is the surest way to underestimate your enemy, and overestimate your own abilities. I'm glad the IAF chief thinks that this may be a pretty good aircraft. Until proven otherwise, it's best to assume and prepare for the worst. Hurry up on the Tejas Mk2 / MCA!
So why is Pakistan still inducting more and more of this fighter, which its critics increasingly call it Junk Fighter – 17 ? The answer may lie with Pakistan’s recent trauma & its psyche. Having sanctioned by the U.S, the star of their airforce, the F-16s were severally hit by lack of spares and most of the time grounded. The other 2 sources to procure modern Aircraft- Russia, have been sealed off due to the legacy of Soviet era friendship, current market in India & India’s pressure- and the other source, the European Union, for their extremely high costs. The third source, the Chinese, at that time were still flying their reverse engineered Mig-21s. In those circumstances, “Never again” was the motto of PAF and it instantly jumped into the project of further reversing the reverse engineered Mig-21, known as Super-7(a.k.a Super F-7) to obtain self reliance. The result of that project is the JF-17. So the decision was appropriate at that time, in those situations. However now with China having developed the J-10, and going by the recent reports of offering ToT(transfer of Technology) to Pakistan, one wonders why are the Pakistanis still ordering 250 planes. Is the trauma of F-16 sanctions so high that they don’t even trust the Chinese? This can't be the case because they still need the Chinese to procure the RD-93 engines for them, even after the Chinese transfer all their associated JF-17 tech to PAC. So why…? The answer lies with their ego/psyche rather than the trauma. Unlike J-10, Pakistan shares copyright to JF-17 and that, for some weird reason, gives them something to celebrate about. This is strange for the reason, war machines are for fighting wars and achieving tactical & strategic objectives, not for gloating about who holds the copyrights. When JF-17 comes face to face with MKI or SMT, there won’t be much to celebrate about it, or the few millions if at all it earns though exports. In the end, it’s all about defending ones homeland from the enemy, and not copyrights.
JF-17 would have been the best fighter and a sensible decision in the absence of J-10, but now its reason for existence is as obsolete as the fighter itself. This writer would rather have an upgraded Mig-23MLD than a JF-17 anyday.
Pakistan has witnessed new defense acquisitions in this decade than any other, and in the center of it all is the new fighter which was designed by China with partial funding from Pakistan. It is formally known as JF-17 Thunder. When the fighter was in development, Pakistani online communities were jumping with excitement comparing it with its arch rival India’s modern combatants Su-30MKI, Mig-29S & Mirage-2000H. There were claims of it featuring western Radars and long range missiles, & Chinese ordering some due to its superior capabilities. But the reality is far from it-
China having spent significant amount of money into a fighter which it is never going to use, most probably forced Pakistan to accept its avionics to offset some its development costs. Chinese who are known for their self reliance first and quality next, are further downgrading JF-17s capabilities with their poorly copy-pirated avionics. Along with their dubious weapons, any chance of JF-17 maintaining BVR edge over its adversary’s front-line combatants, for the most part, is unlikely. Even in close combat JF-17 lacks what it takes to win the fight. Its wings bearing resemblance(in wing twist & wing area) to a fighter which china knows inside out, the J-7, doesn’t have wing twist nor does it have enough area to provide a low wing loading. It’s performance during low speeds and high alphas would be very dangerous for the pilot indeed. It has a Maximum G loading of only 8, as claimed by PAC. Its thrust to weight ratio is another negative point. When its arch rival, the Indian Air Force, was overtly critical of Tejas for having a low Thrust to Weight ratio, maybe they should have compared it with JF-17 which has even less, even with Emergency Thrust. Pakistan Aeronautical Complex(PAC) proudly displays the RD-93’s “Combat thrust with afterburner“ as 19,200lbf, while the whole defense community knows RD-93’s thrust is 18,300lbf and the only real thrust increase was achieved with its new re-designed Sea Wasp RD-33MK engines- which has been explicitly stated by Klimov. However, Klimov’s RD-33 series 3(whose avatar is RD-93 with re-positioned Gear boxes) has a provision for emergency thrust which Klimov says can produce 8700kgf(~19200lbf) in their official released document. They further state that as “Take-off emergency mode”. So the mentioned thrust can only be used during take-off where the Air is denser, and also only during emergency situations since it would seriously lower the engine’s lifespan. This is a far cry from PAC's “Combat thrust“ claim. Why this is being stated is because, the engines(bought by the Chinese after pressurizing the Russians) are the only non-Chinese & non-Pakistani component, and even there they have lied about its capabilities. Hence the true, lower than published, specifications of Chinese and Pakistani components are open to any one’s guesses. In any case, the close combat capabilities of JF-17 is below average or average at best. The next Achilles heal is JF-17’s speed. For a good interception, speed is an important criteria. However JF-17’s max speed is Mach 1.6 which is claimed by PAC. This indicates that JF-17 is draggier. When compared, their F-7’s has higher speed of mach 2+ with a lower thrust engine. The IAF fighters which it is going to face, all have speeds greater than the Thunder.
So why is Pakistan still inducting more and more of this fighter, which its critics increasingly call it Junk Fighter – 17 ? The answer may lie with Pakistan’s recent trauma & its psyche. Having sanctioned by the U.S, the star of their airforce, the F-16s were severally hit by lack of spares and most of the time grounded. The other 2 sources to procure modern Aircraft- Russia, have been sealed off due to the legacy of Soviet era friendship, current market in India & India’s pressure- and the other source, the European Union, for their extremely high costs. The third source, the Chinese, at that time were still flying their reverse engineered Mig-21s. In those circumstances, “Never again” was the motto of PAF and it instantly jumped into the project of further reversing the reverse engineered Mig-21, known as Super-7(a.k.a Super F-7) to obtain self reliance. The result of that project is the JF-17. So the decision was appropriate at that time, in those situations. However now with China having developed the J-10, and going by the recent reports of offering ToT(transfer of Technology) to Pakistan, one wonders why are the Pakistanis still ordering 250 planes. Is the trauma of F-16 sanctions so high that they don’t even trust the Chinese? This can't be the case because they still need the Chinese to procure the RD-93 engines for them, even after the Chinese transfer all their associated JF-17 tech to PAC. So why…? The answer lies with their ego/psyche rather than the trauma. Unlike J-10, Pakistan shares copyright to JF-17 and that, for some weird reason, gives them something to celebrate about. This is strange for the reason, war machines are for fighting wars and achieving tactical & strategic objectives, not for gloating about who holds the copyrights. When JF-17 comes face to face with MKI or SMT, there won’t be much to celebrate about it, or the few millions if at all it earns though exports. In the end, it’s all about defending ones homeland from the enemy, and not copyrights.
JF-17 would have been the best fighter and a sensible decision in the absence of J-10, but now its reason for existence is as obsolete as the fighter itself. This writer would rather have an upgraded Mig-23MLD than a JF-17 anyday.
When China wakes up to indian abuse and agressive behaviour, then Indians will shiver. India is buying weapons that were advanced 10 years ago. India will see how China is planning to fight in the modern informationlized era. China has allies in Pakistan and can easily actively support the Maoists and freedom groups in North East India, all they need is more money to expand their operations. The rebel groups can easily buy weapons of some corrupt Indian security personal. And thankfully Nepal has a maoists dominate government and Sri Lanka has good relations with China and Pakistan. Soon Afghnaistan will be lost again. Thanks for building roads for Pakistan.
Where did you get your information from? If you are talking about the JF-17 prototype aircraft, then you would be correct, but the production model has adressed the issues you have mentioned. The current JF-17 maximum speed is mach 1.8, and the current g-limit is +8.5g. To address lack of low speed maneuverability, the LERXs have been enlarged and to reduce weight and improve stealth, Diverterless Supersonic Intakes have been incorporated into the design. To address the reliance on a Russian engine, an indigenous Chinese WS-13 engine that can offer up to 10% more thrust than the RD-93 is nearing maturity, with an improved version of WS-13 capable of 100kn of thrust undergoing development. This improved WS-13 is comparable to the f414 engine.
Its hilarious the number of idiotic comments that have been made here, making taunts at the jet, the country, the people.. Should take the lot of you and lock you up with a bunch of the same breed from the other side. lol! Jokes apart.. grow up guys. 😐 I mean I hope the lot of you are adolescents with hormonal issues or adults far removed from society!
Onto more serious matters: The DSI features on the intakes are known to serve as stealthy features. Any info on that?
This comment thread is starting to resemble a J-17 thread of defence.pk!!!
Guys, chill.
Congratulations to the Pakistanis, they've apparently managed to co-develop this bird and send it to Farnbrough- only time will tell how good it is. Everybody can save their breath and go back to their own jobs.
@junkfighter-17: what an apt name. The part about the engines was informative and exposes their lies.
As for the defenders, look carefully, the article references to the official infoboard from IDEAS or whatever it's called held in 2008, IIRC. JF-17 fan boys have been saying its speed has been increased to 1.8 from 2006. Why would PAC publish a lower figure in its most recent infoboard. Are the PAC idiots? The same goes for Gs as well. It's 8, not 8.5. And given the chinese inexperience with engines, good luck getting the WS-13 to function properly. Seriously, fan boys will always remain fan boys.
Guys..besides trying to diss JF17..should come up with valid points.. not hoo haa of Indian paranoia..
anyway… just my 2 cents..
whatever it is… it is a fighter plane inducted in PAF and we are proud of it.. whatever is going behind the scenes and may be even we dont know what the actual figures are ..but we have trust in PAC and PAF…
its similar in a sense to the fact that Pakistan had nuclear weapons since 1984 (see AQ khan's latest interview)
so..well I love it.. for watever it is.. its ours:) and its flying.. unlike stuck in RnD phase for deacades…
Pakis will make 50% profit on each JF17 plane sold, like they have been doing for the K-8. In the next decade plenty of these will be sold.
They have already said all the money will go into further development. Each successive block of 50 will be more advanced than the previous one.
Look at the advantage this gives. We have to wait 5-10 years for an upgrade by the OEM and they will be doing the upgrades themselves. Talk to any services personnel and they will tell you the advantages of this.
They are already testing home grown avonics on the JF17's. Imagine where they will be as they experience the F-16 Block 52+, and know what they need to produce avonics wise.
Before you disrespect the plane, remember the words of a cerain USAF colonel wrt the mig-21 bison. Also read the reports how the MKI's have performed against the MK2000-5 in france, especialy it being detected.
And now imagine 250 of these (each costing on average $15m) armed with BVR/ HMS 5thgen WVR missles whilst being guided by at least 8 AEW&C planes coming at you. What you going to do?
I love the junk fighter. The more pakistanis get this junk the more I happy I get. hahaha
BTW, Pakistanis will only be getting very very little money out of this if at all it gets exported, because the ones PAC manufactures goes to the PAF. That's because they won't be manufacturing the plane. The manufacturing party(China) will be getting almost all of the cost since they are the one manufacturing the plane. Also they too hold the copy right just like PAF. If PAF/PAC exports the plane then they will be getting the money. No one is stupid enough to give 50% of the money from exports to a country which did nothing. maybe they could get less than 5% just for the copyright clause. Not more than that, because CAC also holds copyright plus has manufactured the plane.
Who told you it takes 15 years to upgrade with the OEM? If you have the money the OEM will be happy to upgrade each month. It delays in India's case because of red tape. Not only upgrade, but even buying takes a lot of time in india.
Home grown avionics? What are they? Wires & capacitors? lol They don't manufacture any of the main avionics.
250 junk fighters are worse than 30 high tech jets. I guess the entire world is stupid to manufacture less but highly advanced planes rather than mass produce spitfires or F-86 sabres. Quality holds the key in today's world, not numbers. Also think about the morale of the pilots after they hear their colleagues who got shot down. If the first 30 junk fighters out of 250 planes gets shot down during the initial days of the war with little or no loss to the other side at the hands of these junk fighters, what would the other 220 planes and the pilots do? Take to the sky like nothing has happened? The morale of the force would hit rock bottom!!
Have any of you heard of a recent deal struck between Pakistan and China to develop a stealth version of the JF-17? The current deal calls for an upgraded version of JF-17 after every batch of 50 planes (they are currently at batch 1), which means an upgrade/improvement every 2-3 years at current production rates. With the new deal to develop a stealth version, Pakistan could be producing stealth JF-17's from batch 3 onwards (ie from plane number 101 up to 250), or roughly in 5-6 years time. If all goes to plan then Pakistan might have 150 stealth JF-17's by 2025!
I think you will find Paks will get at least 50% of the profits. They are already taking the lead to export it to Egypt and not china. Azerbijan is next. Read the latest info from the Farnborough Mag (link on BR), Paks will do lots of work on the export side of things. After all they funded it. It's what is in the contract that counts.
When it comes to upgrades, i am talking about reality not what could be. Because in war only reality counts not wishful thinking. Do you currently IAF has to send the MKI engines back to russia to be refurbished!!!
30 better than 250? How old are? do you have any knowledge of airwarfare…do you know what BVR is? What AEW&C planes are?
Indeed this is the nightmare scenario for IAF. Russians have already told india that they will have very little say on the PAK-FA and that their will be no jointness. Don't believe me read the interview of the PAK-FA program director.
In the meantime the JF-17 which already is likely to have lower RCS than the Bison will become stealthy. Paks are prgressing fast from being able to do nothing to assembling, deisgn, manufacture of components except engine, home grown avonics to stealthy jf.
Where are we? Still tryign to get design consultancy. Still trying to find an engine? still trying to find a radar? Still trying to do more than 4g in testing? still cannot do any risky manouvers in case LCA falls? what a joke. Don't riddicule Pakis, envoy them and their success.
The question which you should be asking yourself is do YOU know anything about aerial warfare my paki friend. BVR and everything is useless unless you get a good radar and bvr missile. Given the fact that Pakistan has yet to get a western radar and bvr missile and is begging france, JF-17 is indeed a junk fighter. PAF isn't too fond of their dear friend's china's radar and weapons.
With the junk fighter sent to the junk yard in droves, the other paki pilots will think twice about engaging IAF fighters again. Their morale will be at the lowest ebb.
Are you daft? You Pakis will not get 50% of the profits. You won't be manufacturing the plane for export. China will be doing that. You think china will share 50% of the profit even though they manufactured them? Are they stupid?
HAL Koraput division is already taking care of the AL-31 MKI engines. I guess you missed that, huh. On the other hand, it is pakistan which should send the RD-93 engines back to russia, via china.
hahaha.. joke of the century. JF-17 becoming stealthy. Some ill informed journalist says that without any official confirmation. China has no experience with stealth planes, and you think they will create a super duper stealth junk fighter for you pakis? There is a limit to imagination. There was also a story about stealthy MKI spun by some journalists. That one was more imaginative.
The junk fighter is so junky that PAF is accepting in it's current form, while IAF, eventhough LCA is more potent in specs(TWR, wing loading etc) compared to this junk, it still is asking for more from HAL. This itself shows the standards of the paki air force.
And I guess you're one of those paki pretending to be an Indian. All your lies and half truth you spread among your ilk to feel happy about yourselves won't stand scrutiny outside your self created wonderland.
IAF leardership looked quite worried about this jet…so trying stop engines.I can only feel glad to read bhindis thinking its nothing because its gona be smacking them big time in future conflict.100KT engine is only couple of yrs ahead too.Ur tejas is a joke and all india know that.Oh right u giuys are jealous..thats understand able as ur tejas is being build for over 3 decades now and thunder has even reached farnborough in couple of years…hand on it n dont wet ur pants as next blocks gona be real killers….image 250-300 of thunders,150 fc-20 and 100 f-16s entering ur airspace.The chance u missed in 2008 will never be coming to u again u fools.
ummm seems like a lot of indian guys here living in cloud cuckoo land.none of them talking with any real knowledge.if you have a plane that u think is top of the world so be it,let the pakistanis think theirs is cool.if and when war happens everythingwill be there for everyone to see.let me end with a saying of a genius-i dont know what or how the 3rd world war will be fought but the 4th will definetly be fought with stones and sticks
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Hail the thaandar bandar, the spitfire killer.
It is a 3rd class 3rd gen phyter onree.
Mileage kitna deti hai bhai ??
Jokes apart, looks pretty ok to me. Has a large nose cone to accomodate an aesa if the need arises. Looks like a decent plane to qualify as a gap filler in large numbers.
PAKI?? OOH!!! I GET IT FOR SECERETLY GIVING ACCESS TO AMERICAN F-16 BLOCK 30 DESIGNS TO THE CHINIESE YES GOOD JOB. KEEP IT UP
Whatever it is, it is our enemy.
It needs to be shot down preferably over non populous areas, otherwise its fuel tanks can cause havocs and other collateral damages.
still our lca looking for better engine , wing modification , radar jf17 going forward very rapidly
if jf17 get same foreign support as lca tejas like 98kt engine aesa radar better avionics it will beat tejas by the time lca mk2 achieve foc we may see 150+jf17mk2 thats for sure
common indian dud babus when u wake up
Paki means PAF's? Or I missed lately about PAC putting their indigenously developed screws and bolts.
Most of chinese reverse engg jets looks moulded one , JF-17/J series . its better than our mig21/mig27, and good target's for Su30 mki / mmrca .
Comments are fine, but Pakistan is selling its products in the World fair in China and now posing it's so called jointly developed Fighter in Farnborough.
Our Air chief's have also said it seems to be a decent fighter, also gives Pakistan more expertise in Fighters. Atleast a new batch altogether.
What is India's representation at Farnborough this time.
It better be good and promising.
Shiv any news on this.
The most beautifool piece of junk.gud goin paf.hahahaha
Looks like good fighter, don't know real capabilities. May be its chinease copy of f-16 and paki's are fasting scew's on it, but its there in the market for sale. Once they get decent orders they will improve it like russian's improved there su-30 based on IAF inputs, LCA is no where in market.
Looks more like Inzamam ul hak.
its a chinese copy but interestin thing is tat the chinese air frce dint induct so far!!
its a chinese copy of some western aircraft but interstin fact is tat the CAF dint induct it…weras the paki s went ahead wit d induction.
Shiv ji
Please shed some light on how good JF 17 is. At this stage they are not getting the Russian engine nor French Avionics.
pakis r so proud of this piece of junk… so why is it the chinese have yet to induct it?? if this plane is sooo good, why it has no place in PLAAF? haha shows it is a piece of crap specially for the pakis… the chinese dont wanna say they dont want it, so they r saying trials blah blah…. once the pakis have paid up for 150+ units, chinese will officially say "this sux"..
and to the paki above, what is in the JF17 which is Paki? i bet even the nuts and bolts are from China. Oh maybe the paint job maybe of Paki origin, but yet again Paint will be made in China. I can name u at least 20 different critical components in Tejas which is of Indian origin.
Some interesting news BTW: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/07/12/data-shows-pakistan-googling-pornographic-material/
pornistanis….
a chinese pilot training a pakistani pilot on jf-17.a lesson in landing is being tought —
pakistani pilot – how do we bring the jf – 17 down ?????????
chinese pilot – dont worry the indian pilots will do it for you .
Vajpayee and Bush are sitting in a bar.
A guy walks in and asks the bar man, "Isn't that Bush and Vajpayee?"
The bar man says "Yep, that's them."
So the guy walks over and says, "Hello, what are you guys doing?"
Bush says, "We're planning world war 3"
The guy says, "Really? What's going to happen?"
And Vajpayee says, "Well, we're going to kill 14 million Pakistanis and one bicycle repairman."
And the guy exclaimed, "A bicycle repairman?!"
Vajpayee turns to Bush and says, "See, I told you no-one would worry about the 14 million Pakistanis!"
We are superior in all respects to Pakistan and that may be a fact but ordinary people in Pakistan are just like us – pawns at the hands of politicians. Let us appreciate the fact that many ordinay Pakistani citizens work in their armament / ordinance / aircraft factories ..maybe assembling from crates yet there is some engineering effort behind it.
Unless we stop slandering each other the arms race will continue and this is detrimental to our society – whether on this side of border or the other side.
Whatever we say at least it enjoys more support from their folks. What is the use of a superior Tejas if the forces do not induct them in large numbers (350-400 planes at least)?
This is just a Mig-21 with intakes shifted to the sides, the same aluminum alloy,wing design the avionics are not advanced either, its truly a 3rd generation aircraft!
Tejas is 4th generation with its avionics,composites and improving engines.
Shiv, you run a great blog. Got to love the word "Paki" you put in as bait. Shiv even by your standards (digging the dirt on the USAF anti-flanker Colonel, remember?), this is pretty low.
The Chinese aren't inducting the FC-1/JF-17 yet because they are waiting for their WS-13 engine to reach maturity so that they do not need to rely on the Russian RD-93 engine. Last I heard, a test plane fitted with the WS-13 engine is undergoing tests, while the WS-13 itself has been certified since 2007 with serial production starting in 2009, also the WS-13 is supposed to give about 5-10% more thrust than the RD-93 and an improved version of WS-13 capable of 100kt thrust is under development. Expect WS-13 powered JF-17/FC-1's in the next 2 years.
Lack of humility and scorn for others is the surest way to underestimate your enemy, and overestimate your own abilities. I'm glad the IAF chief thinks that this may be a pretty good aircraft. Until proven otherwise, it's best to assume and prepare for the worst. Hurry up on the Tejas Mk2 / MCA!
So why is Pakistan still inducting more and more of this fighter, which its critics increasingly call it Junk Fighter – 17 ? The answer may lie with Pakistan’s recent trauma & its psyche. Having sanctioned by the U.S, the star of their airforce, the F-16s were severally hit by lack of spares and most of the time grounded. The other 2 sources to procure modern Aircraft- Russia, have been sealed off due to the legacy of Soviet era friendship, current market in India & India’s pressure- and the other source, the European Union, for their extremely high costs. The third source, the Chinese, at that time were still flying their reverse engineered Mig-21s. In those circumstances, “Never again” was the motto of PAF and it instantly jumped into the project of further reversing the reverse engineered Mig-21, known as Super-7(a.k.a Super F-7) to obtain self reliance. The result of that project is the JF-17. So the decision was appropriate at that time, in those situations. However now with China having developed the J-10, and going by the recent reports of offering ToT(transfer of Technology) to Pakistan, one wonders why are the Pakistanis still ordering 250 planes. Is the trauma of F-16 sanctions so high that they don’t even trust the Chinese? This can't be the case because they still need the Chinese to procure the RD-93 engines for them, even after the Chinese transfer all their associated JF-17 tech to PAC. So why…? The answer lies with their ego/psyche rather than the trauma. Unlike J-10, Pakistan shares copyright to JF-17 and that, for some weird reason, gives them something to celebrate about. This is strange for the reason, war machines are for fighting wars and achieving tactical & strategic objectives, not for gloating about who holds the copyrights. When JF-17 comes face to face with MKI or SMT, there won’t be much to celebrate about it, or the few millions if at all it earns though exports. In the end, it’s all about defending ones homeland from the enemy, and not copyrights.
JF-17 would have been the best fighter and a sensible decision in the absence of J-10, but now its reason for existence is as obsolete as the fighter itself. This writer would rather have an upgraded Mig-23MLD than a JF-17 anyday.
Reference:
Official JF-17 Placard: http://i31.tinypic.com/34xgswi.jpg
Klimov's Engine Data: http://klimov.ru/f/download/press-kit/2100054687/2100054340/
Nice Article-
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Is Pakistan's JF-17 a Thunder or Blunder ?
Pakistan has witnessed new defense acquisitions in this decade than any other, and in the center of it all is the new fighter which was designed by China with partial funding from Pakistan. It is formally known as JF-17 Thunder. When the fighter was in development, Pakistani online communities were jumping with excitement comparing it with its arch rival India’s modern combatants Su-30MKI, Mig-29S & Mirage-2000H. There were claims of it featuring western Radars and long range missiles, & Chinese ordering some due to its superior capabilities. But the reality is far from it-
China having spent significant amount of money into a fighter which it is never going to use, most probably forced Pakistan to accept its avionics to offset some its development costs. Chinese who are known for their self reliance first and quality next, are further downgrading JF-17s capabilities with their poorly copy-pirated avionics. Along with their dubious weapons, any chance of JF-17 maintaining BVR edge over its adversary’s front-line combatants, for the most part, is unlikely.
Even in close combat JF-17 lacks what it takes to win the fight. Its wings bearing resemblance(in wing twist & wing area) to a fighter which china knows inside out, the J-7, doesn’t have wing twist nor does it have enough area to provide a low wing loading. It’s performance during low speeds and high alphas would be very dangerous for the pilot indeed. It has a Maximum G loading of only 8, as claimed by PAC. Its thrust to weight ratio is another negative point. When its arch rival, the Indian Air Force, was overtly critical of Tejas for having a low Thrust to Weight ratio, maybe they should have compared it with JF-17 which has even less, even with Emergency Thrust. Pakistan Aeronautical Complex(PAC) proudly displays the RD-93’s “Combat thrust with afterburner“ as 19,200lbf, while the whole defense community knows RD-93’s thrust is 18,300lbf and the only real thrust increase was achieved with its new re-designed Sea Wasp RD-33MK engines- which has been explicitly stated by Klimov. However, Klimov’s RD-33 series 3(whose avatar is RD-93 with re-positioned Gear boxes) has a provision for emergency thrust which Klimov says can produce 8700kgf(~19200lbf) in their official released document. They further state that as “Take-off emergency mode”. So the mentioned thrust can only be used during take-off where the Air is denser, and also only during emergency situations since it would seriously lower the engine’s lifespan. This is a far cry from PAC's “Combat thrust“ claim. Why this is being stated is because, the engines(bought by the Chinese after pressurizing the Russians) are the only non-Chinese & non-Pakistani component, and even there they have lied about its capabilities. Hence the true, lower than published, specifications of Chinese and Pakistani components are open to any one’s guesses. In any case, the close combat capabilities of JF-17 is below average or average at best.
The next Achilles heal is JF-17’s speed. For a good interception, speed is an important criteria. However JF-17’s max speed is Mach 1.6 which is claimed by PAC. This indicates that JF-17 is draggier. When compared, their F-7’s has higher speed of mach 2+ with a lower thrust engine. The IAF fighters which it is going to face, all have speeds greater than the Thunder.
So why is Pakistan still inducting more and more of this fighter, which its critics increasingly call it Junk Fighter – 17 ? The answer may lie with Pakistan’s recent trauma & its psyche. Having sanctioned by the U.S, the star of their airforce, the F-16s were severally hit by lack of spares and most of the time grounded. The other 2 sources to procure modern Aircraft- Russia, have been sealed off due to the legacy of Soviet era friendship, current market in India & India’s pressure- and the other source, the European Union, for their extremely high costs. The third source, the Chinese, at that time were still flying their reverse engineered Mig-21s. In those circumstances, “Never again” was the motto of PAF and it instantly jumped into the project of further reversing the reverse engineered Mig-21, known as Super-7(a.k.a Super F-7) to obtain self reliance. The result of that project is the JF-17. So the decision was appropriate at that time, in those situations. However now with China having developed the J-10, and going by the recent reports of offering ToT(transfer of Technology) to Pakistan, one wonders why are the Pakistanis still ordering 250 planes. Is the trauma of F-16 sanctions so high that they don’t even trust the Chinese? This can't be the case because they still need the Chinese to procure the RD-93 engines for them, even after the Chinese transfer all their associated JF-17 tech to PAC. So why…? The answer lies with their ego/psyche rather than the trauma. Unlike J-10, Pakistan shares copyright to JF-17 and that, for some weird reason, gives them something to celebrate about. This is strange for the reason, war machines are for fighting wars and achieving tactical & strategic objectives, not for gloating about who holds the copyrights. When JF-17 comes face to face with MKI or SMT, there won’t be much to celebrate about it, or the few millions if at all it earns though exports. In the end, it’s all about defending ones homeland from the enemy, and not copyrights.
JF-17 would have been the best fighter and a sensible decision in the absence of J-10, but now its reason for existence is as obsolete as the fighter itself. This writer would rather have an upgraded Mig-23MLD than a JF-17 anyday.
Reference:
Official JF-17 Placard: http://i31.tinypic.com/34xgswi.jpg
Klimov's Engine Data: http://klimov.ru/f/download/press-kit/2100054687/2100054340/
"Paki" blog owner is rattled?
When China wakes up to indian abuse and agressive behaviour, then Indians will shiver. India is buying weapons that were advanced 10 years ago. India will see how China is planning to fight in the modern informationlized era. China has allies in Pakistan and can easily actively support the Maoists and freedom groups in North East India, all they need is more money to expand their operations. The rebel groups can easily buy weapons of some corrupt Indian security personal. And thankfully Nepal has a maoists dominate government and Sri Lanka
has good relations with China and Pakistan. Soon Afghnaistan will be lost again. Thanks for building roads for Pakistan.
@Junk Fighter 17
Where did you get your information from? If you are talking about the JF-17 prototype aircraft, then you would be correct, but the production model has adressed the issues you have mentioned. The current JF-17 maximum speed is mach 1.8, and the current g-limit is +8.5g. To address lack of low speed maneuverability, the LERXs have been enlarged and to reduce weight and improve stealth, Diverterless Supersonic Intakes have been incorporated into the design. To address the reliance on a Russian engine, an indigenous Chinese WS-13 engine that can offer up to 10% more thrust than the RD-93 is nearing maturity, with an improved version of WS-13 capable of 100kn of thrust undergoing development. This improved WS-13 is comparable to the f414 engine.
Its hilarious the number of idiotic comments that have been made here, making taunts at the jet, the country, the people.. Should take the lot of you and lock you up with a bunch of the same breed from the other side. lol!
Jokes apart.. grow up guys. 😐 I mean I hope the lot of you are adolescents with hormonal issues or adults far removed from society!
Onto more serious matters: The DSI features on the intakes are known to serve as stealthy features. Any info on that?
This comment thread is starting to resemble a J-17 thread of defence.pk!!!
Guys, chill.
Congratulations to the Pakistanis, they've apparently managed to co-develop this bird and send it to Farnbrough- only time will tell how good it is. Everybody can save their breath and go back to their own jobs.
@junkfighter-17: what an apt name. The part about the engines was informative and exposes their lies.
As for the defenders, look carefully, the article references to the official infoboard from IDEAS or whatever it's called held in 2008, IIRC. JF-17 fan boys have been saying its speed has been increased to 1.8 from 2006. Why would PAC publish a lower figure in its most recent infoboard. Are the PAC idiots?
The same goes for Gs as well. It's 8, not 8.5. And given the chinese inexperience with engines, good luck getting the WS-13 to function properly.
Seriously, fan boys will always remain fan boys.
Guys..besides trying to diss JF17..should come up with valid points.. not hoo haa of Indian paranoia..
anyway… just my 2 cents..
whatever it is… it is a fighter plane inducted in PAF and we are proud of it.. whatever is going behind the scenes and may be even we dont know what the actual figures are ..but we have trust in PAC and PAF…
its similar in a sense to the fact that Pakistan had nuclear weapons since 1984 (see AQ khan's latest interview)
so..well I love it.. for watever it is.. its ours:) and its flying.. unlike stuck in RnD phase for deacades…
Pakis will make 50% profit on each JF17 plane sold, like they have been doing for the K-8. In the next decade plenty of these will be sold.
They have already said all the money will go into further development. Each successive block of 50 will be more advanced than the previous one.
Look at the advantage this gives. We have to wait 5-10 years for an upgrade by the OEM and they will be doing the upgrades themselves. Talk to any services personnel and they will tell you the advantages of this.
They are already testing home grown avonics on the JF17's. Imagine where they will be as they experience the F-16 Block 52+, and know what they need to produce avonics wise.
Before you disrespect the plane, remember the words of a cerain USAF colonel wrt the mig-21 bison. Also read the reports how the MKI's have performed against the MK2000-5 in france, especialy it being detected.
And now imagine 250 of these (each costing on average $15m) armed with BVR/ HMS 5thgen WVR missles whilst being guided by at least 8 AEW&C planes coming at you. What you going to do?
I love the junk fighter. The more pakistanis get this junk the more I happy I get. hahaha
BTW, Pakistanis will only be getting very very little money out of this if at all it gets exported, because the ones PAC manufactures goes to the PAF. That's because they won't be manufacturing the plane. The manufacturing party(China) will be getting almost all of the cost since they are the one manufacturing the plane. Also they too hold the copy right just like PAF. If PAF/PAC exports the plane then they will be getting the money. No one is stupid enough to give 50% of the money from exports to a country which did nothing. maybe they could get less than 5% just for the copyright clause. Not more than that, because CAC also holds copyright plus has manufactured the plane.
Who told you it takes 15 years to upgrade with the OEM? If you have the money the OEM will be happy to upgrade each month. It delays in India's case because of red tape. Not only upgrade, but even buying takes a lot of time in india.
Home grown avionics? What are they? Wires & capacitors? lol They don't manufacture any of the main avionics.
250 junk fighters are worse than 30 high tech jets. I guess the entire world is stupid to manufacture less but highly advanced planes rather than mass produce spitfires or F-86 sabres. Quality holds the key in today's world, not numbers. Also think about the morale of the pilots after they hear their colleagues who got shot down. If the first 30 junk fighters out of 250 planes gets shot down during the initial days of the war with little or no loss to the other side at the hands of these junk fighters, what would the other 220 planes and the pilots do? Take to the sky like nothing has happened? The morale of the force would hit rock bottom!!
I'd be worried if PAF has 20 F-22, but I'm still laughing they are going to induct 250 junks.
Have any of you heard of a recent deal struck between Pakistan and China to develop a stealth version of the JF-17? The current deal calls for an upgraded version of JF-17 after every batch of 50 planes (they are currently at batch 1), which means an upgrade/improvement every 2-3 years at current production rates. With the new deal to develop a stealth version, Pakistan could be producing stealth JF-17's from batch 3 onwards (ie from plane number 101 up to 250), or roughly in 5-6 years time. If all goes to plan then Pakistan might have 150 stealth JF-17's by 2025!
@10:37
I think you will find Paks will get at least 50% of the profits. They are already taking the lead to export it to Egypt and not china. Azerbijan is next. Read the latest info from the Farnborough Mag (link on BR), Paks will do lots of work on the export side of things. After all they funded it. It's what is in the contract that counts.
When it comes to upgrades, i am talking about reality not what could be. Because in war only reality counts not wishful thinking. Do you currently IAF has to send the MKI engines back to russia to be refurbished!!!
30 better than 250? How old are? do you have any knowledge of airwarfare…do you know what BVR is? What AEW&C planes are?
@9:01
Indeed this is the nightmare scenario for IAF. Russians have already told india that they will have very little say on the PAK-FA and that their will be no jointness. Don't believe me read the interview of the PAK-FA program director.
In the meantime the JF-17 which already is likely to have lower RCS than the Bison will become stealthy. Paks are prgressing fast from being able to do nothing to assembling, deisgn, manufacture of components except engine, home grown avonics to stealthy jf.
Where are we? Still tryign to get design consultancy. Still trying to find an engine? still trying to find a radar? Still trying to do more than 4g in testing? still cannot do any risky manouvers in case LCA falls? what a joke. Don't riddicule Pakis, envoy them and their success.
The question which you should be asking yourself is do YOU know anything about aerial warfare my paki friend. BVR and everything is useless unless you get a good radar and bvr missile. Given the fact that Pakistan has yet to get a western radar and bvr missile and is begging france, JF-17 is indeed a junk fighter. PAF isn't too fond of their dear friend's china's radar and weapons.
With the junk fighter sent to the junk yard in droves, the other paki pilots will think twice about engaging IAF fighters again. Their morale will be at the lowest ebb.
Are you daft? You Pakis will not get 50% of the profits. You won't be manufacturing the plane for export. China will be doing that. You think china will share 50% of the profit even though they manufactured them? Are they stupid?
HAL Koraput division is already taking care of the AL-31 MKI engines. I guess you missed that, huh. On the other hand, it is pakistan which should send the RD-93 engines back to russia, via china.
hahaha.. joke of the century. JF-17 becoming stealthy. Some ill informed journalist says that without any official confirmation. China has no experience with stealth planes, and you think they will create a super duper stealth junk fighter for you pakis? There is a limit to imagination. There was also a story about stealthy MKI spun by some journalists. That one was more imaginative.
The junk fighter is so junky that PAF is accepting in it's current form, while IAF, eventhough LCA is more potent in specs(TWR, wing loading etc) compared to this junk, it still is asking for more from HAL. This itself shows the standards of the paki air force.
I think you are one of those indian's with lots of Paki DNA :-). When you loose a discussion call them a name…grow up or go back to BR virtual world.
Wishful thinking.
And I guess you're one of those paki pretending to be an Indian. All your lies and half truth you spread among your ilk to feel happy about yourselves won't stand scrutiny outside your self created wonderland.
IAF leardership looked quite worried about this jet…so trying stop engines.I can only feel glad to read bhindis thinking its nothing because its gona be smacking them big time in future conflict.100KT engine is only couple of yrs ahead too.Ur tejas is a joke and all india know that.Oh right u giuys are jealous..thats understand able as ur tejas is being build for over 3 decades now and thunder has even reached farnborough in couple of years…hand on it n dont wet ur pants as next blocks gona be real killers….image 250-300 of thunders,150 fc-20 and 100 f-16s entering ur airspace.The chance u missed in 2008 will never be coming to u again u fools.
ummm seems like a lot of indian guys here living in cloud cuckoo land.none of them talking with any real knowledge.if you have a plane that u think is top of the world so be it,let the pakistanis think theirs is cool.if and when war happens everythingwill be there for everyone to see.let me end with a saying of a genius-i dont know what or how the 3rd world war will be fought but the 4th will definetly be fought with stones and sticks