After the Bofors deal ghost it seems that no defence deals will be finalised in India and also there will be no indigenous defence productions. Its a party time for China and Pakistan. May GOD save India.
Wonderful ! So annon complaints will decided the process of evaluation. Any one who is out of competioin will complain and derail the entire things and MoD will happilly write annon complains if they do not get their share during evaluation.
Are we following a system or it is whims and fancies. We are suscetible to such small aspects then how will system make itself safe against bigger manipulations.
Also any light u can shed why KA-50/52/50-2 was not part of the attack chopper offering. With the Israelis involved the 50-2 could have been another success a la MKI.
the MoD needs to urgently look at its procurement laws..otherwise we will end up buying hardware which by the time the acquisition finishes will be in need of upgrades..(we are already upgrading Su30 MKI s)
What i don't understand is why we need Light Helicopters when our own HAL LOH will be ready for induction by 2013. Why not keep inducting Dhruv's in good numbers and keep until one more year to fill that gap. So why another variant need to be imported? Is this not short sightedness and lack of planning? Also is there vested interests trying to make money out of this import when we can make our own helicopter within India?
I agree with the last poster. It´s not as if ALL requirements can be met by indigenous products (certainly not in the immediate future) but in this case Dhruv is available, successful, and very capable at high altitudes… At the least, why not consider Dhruv competitively compared to the other offerings? (which is where indigenous industry should aim to be)
It is a good thing that we are upgrading the Su-30 MKI. They were contracted in the 90s. Technology has moved ahead in the last decade or so. In fact all aircraft and even all other equipment should be upgraded periodically to keep them relevant and at the cutting edge.
The problem is that we have neglected this in the past. Imagine if we had initiated the upgrade from Bis to Bison fifteen or twenty years back, or the Mirage upgrade 5-10 years back when relevant technology had become available.
We should wonder why we wait till obsolescence of a system before we even start to begin thinking about upgrades. In most cases the life of the air frame is nearing its end and the upgrade has minimal value. Take for example the Bis to Bison upgrade where we failed to upgrade the engine. We had the option to upgrade to the RD-33 which we already license produce but did not do so. Why? Generally these half measures that come too late are what is worrisome.
Su-30 MKI getting a proper upgrade is a very good thing. It is to form the backbone of our air defence for the next 30-40 years. We must strive to keep it at the cutting edge by incorporating latest technologies through regular upgrades.
For reference please check out the F-16 block numbers 10 to now 60. The M1 to M1A2 or even the M16 to M16A4.
1. The DHRUV is a great achievment for Indian Aviation. 2. The DHRUV is not a combat helicopter. 3. It is a derivative of MBB designs related to the BK117; that has been adapted for military purposes. 4. A modern troop lifter with clamshell doors that have to be removed instead of a ramp? 5. The closest analogue is probably the UH-1 a purpose built utility helicopter. Ingress egress from the Huey has been thought out. 6. Granted that Dhruv is our first effor at indigenous rotary design; however we should not attempt to fit all roles on to a single airframe. 7. Rather now that we have the knowledge about helicopter airframes,transmissions etc we should expand our design horizons. 8. Glad that they moved to LCH rather than the weaponised Dhruv. 9 Weaponising Dhruv is great but will it ever be able to function as a dedicated attack helo? Unlikely.
My opinion for what its worth is that we should get into some joint design projects with other nations.
Take for example the LUH requirement. We have had this requirement for a while. Now if the forces have a clear idea of what they need then HAL/DRDO/ADA/CABS etc should be able/allowed to get together with somebody like eurocopter/kamov/sikorsky to design a new airframe maybe derived from an existing air frame and put in as much COTS as possible like engines and avionics and then gradually indigenise it over time.
Take for example the attack helicopter requirement.
Get together Kamov(ka-50 airframe),Turbomeca(powerplant), IAI (avionics), IMI/lockheed(weapons), HAL (integration production),CABS LRDE(for the hush hush stuff),IAF/IA(testing,validation).
Is it possible? Of course its possible almost everybody on that list is running a commercial establishment including HAL(even they have a ledger book with a coloumn for profit/loss).
We know we are good at integration from various sources. Some of our ships have parts from more sources than Frankenstein. All we need to do is get into the integration part rather than just specifying equipment. Get more of a workshare.
This will also obviate the complications of sanctions, denial of spares and support etc while at the same time building up our defence industrial expertise.
If you don't know you have to learn, and the best way to learn is to get hands on projects.
DRDO has to try and stop rebuilding the wheel. Yes its preference that we have competence in all aspects of the build. The question is can the forces wait while we are building that competence.
The worst option is that we buy all our equipment and the best is we build all our equipment. We can not afford the first and we are not capable at this time for the second. So instead we should set up projects where we build what we can and buy components rather than systems which we cannot build. Indigenising these components later on a relaxed time frame is better than denying the whole system to the forces or having to buy entire systems.
Maybe team up with Sikorsky for the S-97 project to fulfill the LUH requirement? Inject some cash, build the composites and other air frame components?
^^^12.06…HAL,LRDE et al together?..it will not happen even in your dreams!!!!may be HAL can rope in Pakistan ,but it will not be able to rope in DRDO!!!!You are too innocent!!!
NOW THE DEFENCE MINISTRY SHOULD MOVE CAUTIOUSLY BECAUSE ANY MORE FURTHER DELAY WOULD RESULT INTO A BIG LOSS THAT WOULD HARD TO COMPENSATE
After the Bofors deal ghost it seems that no defence deals will be finalised in India and also there will be no indigenous defence productions. Its a party time for China and Pakistan. May GOD save India.
Wonderful ! So annon complaints will decided the process of evaluation. Any one who is out of competioin will complain and derail the entire things and MoD will happilly write annon complains if they do not get their share during evaluation.
Are we following a system or it is whims and fancies. We are suscetible to such small aspects then how will system make itself safe against bigger manipulations.
On a somewhat related note, Shiv just in case u haven't seen:
http://www.sikorsky.com/StaticFiles/Sikorsky/Assets/video/LHT_VNR_102010_lowres.wmv
enjoy;)
Also any light u can shed why KA-50/52/50-2 was not part of the attack chopper offering. With the Israelis involved the 50-2 could have been another success a la MKI.
the MoD needs to urgently look at its procurement laws..otherwise we will end up buying hardware which by the time the acquisition finishes will be in need of upgrades..(we are already upgrading Su30 MKI s)
What i don't understand is why we need Light Helicopters when our own HAL LOH will be ready for induction by 2013. Why not keep inducting Dhruv's in good numbers and keep until one more year to fill that gap. So why another variant need to be imported? Is this not short sightedness and lack of planning? Also is there vested interests trying to make money out of this import when we can make our own helicopter within India?
I agree with the last poster. It´s not as if ALL requirements can be met by indigenous products (certainly not in the immediate future) but in this case Dhruv is available, successful, and very capable at high altitudes… At the least, why not consider Dhruv competitively compared to the other offerings? (which is where indigenous industry should aim to be)
Why not are they able to do anything correctly.
@Anon 3:55 pm.
It is a good thing that we are upgrading the Su-30 MKI.
They were contracted in the 90s.
Technology has moved ahead in the last decade or so.
In fact all aircraft and even all other equipment should be upgraded periodically to keep them relevant and at the cutting edge.
The problem is that we have neglected this in the past. Imagine if we had initiated the upgrade from Bis to Bison fifteen or twenty years back, or the Mirage upgrade 5-10 years back when relevant technology had become available.
We should wonder why we wait till obsolescence of a system before we even start to begin thinking about upgrades.
In most cases the life of the air frame is nearing its end and the upgrade has minimal value.
Take for example the Bis to Bison upgrade where we failed to upgrade the engine. We had the option to upgrade to the RD-33 which we already license produce but did not do so.
Why?
Generally these half measures that come too late are what is worrisome.
Su-30 MKI getting a proper upgrade is a very good thing. It is to form the backbone of our air defence for the next 30-40 years. We must strive to keep it at the cutting edge by incorporating latest technologies through regular upgrades.
For reference please check out the F-16 block numbers 10 to now 60. The M1 to M1A2 or even the M16 to M16A4.
People
1. The DHRUV is a great achievment for Indian Aviation.
2. The DHRUV is not a combat helicopter.
3. It is a derivative of MBB designs related to the BK117; that has been adapted for military purposes.
4. A modern troop lifter with clamshell doors that have to be removed instead of a ramp?
5. The closest analogue is probably the UH-1 a purpose built utility helicopter. Ingress egress from the Huey has been thought out.
6. Granted that Dhruv is our first effor at indigenous rotary design; however we should not attempt to fit all roles on to a single airframe.
7. Rather now that we have the knowledge about helicopter airframes,transmissions etc we should expand our design horizons.
8. Glad that they moved to LCH rather than the weaponised Dhruv.
9 Weaponising Dhruv is great but will it ever be able to function as a dedicated attack helo? Unlikely.
My opinion for what its worth is that we should get into some joint design projects with other nations.
Take for example the LUH requirement. We have had this requirement for a while. Now if the forces have a clear idea of what they need then HAL/DRDO/ADA/CABS etc should be able/allowed to get together with somebody like eurocopter/kamov/sikorsky to design a new airframe maybe derived from an existing air frame and put in as much COTS as possible like engines and avionics and then gradually indigenise it over time.
Take for example the attack helicopter requirement.
Get together Kamov(ka-50 airframe),Turbomeca(powerplant), IAI (avionics), IMI/lockheed(weapons), HAL (integration production),CABS LRDE(for the hush hush stuff),IAF/IA(testing,validation).
Is it possible?
Of course its possible almost everybody on that list is running a commercial establishment including HAL(even they have a ledger book with a coloumn for profit/loss).
We know we are good at integration from various sources. Some of our ships have parts from more sources than Frankenstein. All we need to do is get into the integration part rather than just specifying equipment. Get more of a workshare.
This will also obviate the complications of sanctions, denial of spares and support etc while at the same time building up our defence industrial expertise.
If you don't know you have to learn, and the best way to learn is to get hands on projects.
DRDO has to try and stop rebuilding the wheel.
Yes its preference that we have competence in all aspects of the build.
The question is can the forces wait while we are building that competence.
The worst option is that we buy all our equipment and the best is we build all our equipment.
We can not afford the first and we are not capable at this time for the second.
So instead we should set up projects where we build what we can and buy components rather than systems which we cannot build. Indigenising these components later on a relaxed time frame is better than denying the whole system to the forces or having to buy entire systems.
Maybe team up with Sikorsky for the S-97 project to fulfill the LUH requirement? Inject some cash, build the composites and other air frame components?
Wishful thinking? Maybe. Possible?
Entirely.
^^^12.06…HAL,LRDE et al together?..it will not happen even in your dreams!!!!may be HAL can rope in Pakistan ,but it will not be able to rope in DRDO!!!!You are too innocent!!!
KA-226 is a better option.