I would rather love see this deal getting scraped by (i wish) discovery of maliciousness. May god help scrape this deal, and that 20 billion is used on sensible fronts like AMCA and AURA.
What a crap/mess it is…if Dassault is responsible, they should have the freedom to decide or should not be held responsible. Only an idiot will accept what the stupid MOD is dictating, If I were Dassault, I would walk away from this corrupt and filthy country.
If its… hal… air chiefs… packets… delivery will be… huge to non executable… with chor company… its 100% peace of mind… chor knows… how to make chors happy…
Dassualt was definitely knowing HAL's ways of doing things. This is not new regarding HAL. If they are now saying about HAL it means that will now up the prices in some pretext or the other. Rememeber cost of 2 Gripens = 1 Rafale. India should straightway ask Russia to supply them SU 35. At least Russia is a time tested friend of India. We cannot afford to dump Russia. We should remember that Russia supplied India the latest technology at throwaway prices at a time when all the countries had shut doors for India. Rafales are no match for SU 35. Also consider the commonness between SU 35 and SU 30. India should ask Russia not to supply the twenty five SU 35's to China which will eventually be reverse engineered in China and the technology finally land in Pakistan. India can at a later stage assemble them after SU 30 production line ends in India. God save India!
its a conspiracy!!! Dassault does not want HAL to grasp composites, Engine tech, AESA radar, EW suit and other Avionics technology which can make India apply to other programs like AMCA,UCAVs etc… Dassault doesn't want to transfer its tech to India!!!
MoD wants to implicate 3rd parties (HAL) in the contract, specifying that HAL is the prime integrator… yet MoD insists that the contract cannot cover any details of HALs role or it's responsibilities… Surreal.
If MoD truly must insist on only a single point of contact, a contract between only two parties, then they should sign the deal with HAL, and HAL bears total responsibility for the program, and HAL then signs it's own contract with Dassault whereby Dassault/Thales/Snecma/etc take responsibility for their scope of work (not HAL's). If there is a problem on the French end of things, HAL can sue them and pass on the result to the government.
This deal never made sense and I hope it's scrapped soon. I do not fault Dassault for this, I think their point of view is within reason. But, I never understood why not a proven F-18 with all tech in place and at almost half the cost of Dassault's bid. The US were the only one with a proven AESA going into the bid, all others were scrambling to make or incorporate their first one. If the requirement includes AESA, all others should be out of the picture as they had never done this at the time of submitting the bid. F-18 may be an old design, but that design has evolved over time. It's not like they were going to take some old F's and give it to us. Also, it's not like the french bird was twice as good as the F's and therefore it would justify the cost. The way I see it is, the American's lost due to political bitterness of the past, and it had nothing to do with their product's merit. And if I am correct, why in the world do we invite a bid when we have no intent of accepting it.
Its not about supplying, rather about the technologies we are going to learn during the process of manufacturing these fighters. Air force choose not to go with americanF18 for reasons of technical capability and the fear of sanctions.
Why do Indians need weapons? Seriously, who will attack a country like India? There's nothing to gain. Overpopulated, polluted, hot and filthy: first four words that come to my mind when I think about India. Save your money from sneaky French. Use it for some basic development work.
MoD is taking a good stand..as per the earlier interactions with France,These guys are too smart..they sell their aircrafts cheap and the spares at too high cost. This is their technique to grab extra pounds separating out the production contract.
What Dassault said was simple, if HAL builds Rafale, don't expect the aircraft to be in same quality of the 18 aircrafts we buy directly from Dassault. Assuming if HAL was able to do that. But HAL was able to build SU30MKI may be RAFALE is totally different. I just wish HAL uses quality materials instead of 2nd grade junk to make some profit for their own.
Unless HAL is made a party..how MOD and HAL babus will get a share of the $20 bn pie…Euro fighter and Boeing has already set MOD to stall this some how so as to get F-18 or Typhoon on the stage again.
For Euro fighter selling Typhoon is their prime business interest.
For US to sell F-18 is their Strategic interest (Get IAF dependent on US spares and Support)because in the future a Nuclear powerful India can not be pressurized..unless India has strategic dependency on US(Post Pokhran-2 learning for US).
MOD should agree to Dassult's suggestion else it's going to be another MDL-Scorpene Story where MDL directors chosen sub-standard materials for their own benefit and Scorepene delivery from MDL will run into years of delay.
And sold MOD babus will get a chance to blame DCNS for delay in delivery to hide the activities of MDL directors/managers.
You either produce your own aircraft from scratch (like a real power), or you buy it from someone else on their terms. What is all this dithering about? Get your act together, corrupt Indian govt, or go wholeheartedly with the LCA.
MOD and HAL are known for their posturing and this is a good example. Dassault can be held responsible if the product is found defective or not to standards. Can we say the same for HAL ?
Is HAL so important – why can't we have the private sector do it. What's the problem in Indian private sector taking it up, if we are buying it anyways from private companies in France and the US. After all, are Dassault, Boeing, Thales, Lockheed Martin Indian public sector companies ?
Americans won t supply you the know how. In any case the problem is same….they will just say yes and then in the end of the day blame HAL for not deli vering….the problem is much deeper than french chor…its really asking whether india is serious about getting serious in aerospace sector…
If we are so worried about the US having some control over us if we buy the F-18, then guess what, we now transferred that control over to the French by the way of the MMRCA deal. If you want independence, then there is only one route you can take, cook your own stuff at home. French already have us by our b@lls with the subs and other things. and what have we got in return, besides delays. I would say the reality of today is different than in 1998. India is not so easy to push around. But, from my angle it looks like we have no confidence in ourselves and thus we worry about these things that happened in the past but are not likely to happen now. People forget how India, by helping the Russians, during the cold war caused so much pain for the Americans. We have us to blame for US-Paki relations that grew during that time. He put our bets on the wrong horse from day 1, with a hope that Russians were going to give us the Know-How. Guess what, after decades of these TOTs with Russians, we still have no faith in our ability to assemble an aircraft, forget about not yet being able to make a usable fighter jet engine, or even a diesel engine for the Arjun tank. If the last several decased have not taught us that TOT is the wrong thing we are chaising, I am not sure what else can send that message home. I suggest India spend its resources to buy from abroad for the current needs, and develop tech in-house for the needs of the future. No need to waste our time learning how to use a screw-driver, while we have no time or money to accelerate projects like the Tejas.
ToT does not seem to be the issue. Most subsystems are being transferred to non-HAL entities anyways, HAL is only the final integrator of these.
The tender requirements of HAL being prime integrator does NOT in any way logically lead to the conclusion that the contract must only be structured exactly as MoD (clearly pushed by HAL) is claiming.
If MoD wants to push Dassault into an unlimited liability contract with responsibility for things outside their control, they cannot expect to sign a fixed cost contract. Offer Dassault a 'cost plus' contract and I'm sure they will be happy to cooperate with whatever incompetence HAL wants to offer up.
Develop 500 plus LCA Mk2 and twin engined Mk3 with internal weapons bay and stealth at same price which could undergo continuous upgrades and would remain at cutting edge technology which can undergo same upgrades which are developed for AMCA.Cancel the mirage upgrade as it wasteful upgrade with Israeli help and say au revoir France. How come 10 billion contract became 20 billion and I wont be surprised that in contract radar or engine is missing like scorpene submarines and enormous prices for MICA missiles which we really dont know if it is worth the price.In Libya campaign rafale could be do it alone and F 18 were called and and they cleaned up then Raffles were operational.
Rafale would cost more than double the price as mirage upgrade as avionics upgrade is required every 7-10 years. I am pretty sure that who so ever sanctions this deal would end up in Tihar.
india should scrap the deal anyways,none of the aircraft worth it every country will have its own rules, which india will find hard to follow….
india should scrap DASSAULT Rafale and go for Eurofighter Typhoon, it is the only operational aicraft capable to take on F-22 head to head.
if that doesn't work India should Order More Super Su-30mki's,afterall the main objective is to maintain the No. of Squadrons
and last option for us is simple develop Tejas in Beast, just think HAL tejas is the smallest aircraft in the world therefore small radar crosssection, just add stealth features , do RAM coating , equip it with powerful engine if possible add another engine
2 engines max thrust, high speed, long range , higher payload capabilities.. incorporate elbit cockpit NG, develop Conformal Fuel tanks and there we have our true indegenious fighter…..
LSP 8 has been flown sucessfully , this is the sign that india is cruising in right direction……JUST THINK
scrap the MMRCA nd get more MKIs….the light fighter concept is for cost savings like f-15 & f-16 pair or the su-27 & mig 29 pair…the cheaper nd lighter aircraft making up about 2/3rds nd the costly heavy aircraft 1/3rd…however rafale nd eurofighter both cost equal to or more than the MKI…thus no point in going for a knematically inferior aircraft for the same price…..upgrade MKIs nd get more of them…i guess everyone would agree that the MKI is the best fighter today after the raptor..
It's amazing how so many posts are about HAL's supposedly "inefficiencies". The frogs knew the terms of the contract when they entered MMRCA competition which stipulated that the winner of the competition share complete ToT wrt critical technologies. They did promise the Sun and the Moon to win the competition. Now once the results are out they have started piping a different tune.
Dump the French as they have swindled us in the Scorpene subs deal. Go for F35 as full partner in the program. F35 will help us gain knowledge in developing 5th gen fighters.
Would like to tell 2 things after observing this whole procurement process.
1. It is quiet possible that RIL and Dassault have an interest in keeping out HAL out of this due to financial reasons. I am very against RIL (a petrochemical company attempting to manufacture aircrafts) poking its nose everywhere. Reliance will screw the nation on this.
2. Government wants greater role for HAL so that during its divestment the government earns some extra money. HAL is on the list of companies to be divested. Rafale assembly to HAL is definitely in Governments interest and i would support this. The only problem is, god knows when this divestment would happen.
People forget something here, USA also raised the same doubt about HAL's capability to manufacture their aircrafts. Also if we look at SU30MKI, we are making manufacturing most of the components inside our country not just assembling it, a way to develop our domestic industry. Dassault may ask for variable money if there is a delay because of HAL's incapability to observe TOT and Dassault expects it not to be blamed when the aircrafts manufactured by HAL is not up to the quality. Both reasons are valid, I think India will accept the first one and regarding the quality, we need to find out a way to maintain the quality of the aircrafts produced indigenously, may be a separate team to oversee it. Even if Eurofighter is selected it will find it more difficult to involve with HAL than Dassault and we need to wait for 6 countries approval for any TOT or any changes., its a nightmare to deal with.
Scrap the deal. Use the money to develop indigenous tech. That will the serve the country better in the long run. Short term fixes benefit only the corrupt.
we indians are fools rather than 20$ billions on rafales we shud have gone for Russian,upgraded suhkois mki or SU35,since we alredy have Tejas in that category.
The technology associated with manufacturing the Rafale is just too complex. I would highly suggest India forgets about trying to build a single Rafale and just buy 64 of them in fly-away condition.
any professional entity would think the same as dassault owing to the lousy record/management of HAL…we need to first set our own house in order!!!
I would rather love see this deal getting scraped by (i wish) discovery of maliciousness. May god help scrape this deal, and that 20 billion is used on sensible fronts like AMCA and AURA.
What a crap/mess it is…if Dassault is responsible, they should have the freedom to decide or should not be held responsible. Only an idiot will accept what the stupid MOD is dictating, If I were Dassault, I would walk away from this corrupt and filthy country.
is this deal headed for the bin as well..???
If its… hal… air chiefs… packets… delivery will be… huge to non executable… with chor company… its 100% peace of mind… chor knows… how to make chors happy…
We all knew it was comming
France is acting pricey why dont we buy the F 18's the americans will supply them before we think twice
Three month old story..Antony made this announcement in Aero India in Feb in Bangalore this year…Loser Pranab
why don't Dassault actually adhere to the written contract, they knew HAL was the contractor.
So either sign or get out of the way for someone else to sign up for the MMRCA
It is beyond common sense, how can Dassault be held responsible for HAL's manufacturing? Doesn't matter if HAL's record is bad or good or exemplary.
Is HAL a Dassault company? What leverage does Dassault have over HAL to make it do or not do something?
Dassualt was definitely knowing HAL's ways of doing things. This is not new regarding HAL. If they are now saying about HAL it means that will now up the prices in some pretext or the other. Rememeber cost of 2 Gripens = 1 Rafale. India should straightway ask Russia to supply them SU 35. At least Russia is a time tested friend of India. We cannot afford to dump Russia. We should remember that Russia supplied India the latest technology at throwaway prices at a time when all the countries had shut doors for India. Rafales are no match for SU 35. Also consider the commonness between SU 35 and SU 30. India should ask Russia not to supply the twenty five SU 35's to China which will eventually be reverse engineered in China and the technology finally land in Pakistan. India can at a later stage assemble them after SU 30 production line ends in India. God save India!
Hope they will mutually find an amicable solution.
its a conspiracy!!! Dassault does not want HAL to grasp composites, Engine tech, AESA radar, EW suit and other Avionics technology which can make India apply to other programs like AMCA,UCAVs etc… Dassault doesn't want to transfer its tech to India!!!
MoD wants to implicate 3rd parties (HAL) in the contract, specifying that HAL is the prime integrator… yet MoD insists that the contract cannot cover any details of HALs role or it's responsibilities… Surreal.
If MoD truly must insist on only a single point of contact, a contract between only two parties, then they should sign the deal with HAL, and HAL bears total responsibility for the program, and HAL then signs it's own contract with Dassault whereby Dassault/Thales/Snecma/etc take responsibility for their scope of work (not HAL's). If there is a problem on the French end of things, HAL can sue them and pass on the result to the government.
This deal never made sense and I hope it's scrapped soon. I do not fault Dassault for this, I think their point of view is within reason. But, I never understood why not a proven F-18 with all tech in place and at almost half the cost of Dassault's bid. The US were the only one with a proven AESA going into the bid, all others were scrambling to make or incorporate their first one. If the requirement includes AESA, all others should be out of the picture as they had never done this at the time of submitting the bid. F-18 may be an old design, but that design has evolved over time. It's not like they were going to take some old F's and give it to us. Also, it's not like the french bird was twice as good as the F's and therefore it would justify the cost. The way I see it is, the American's lost due to political bitterness of the past, and it had nothing to do with their product's merit. And if I am correct, why in the world do we invite a bid when we have no intent of accepting it.
Its not about supplying, rather about the technologies we are going to learn during the process of manufacturing these fighters. Air force choose not to go with americanF18 for reasons of technical capability and the fear of sanctions.
Why do Indians need weapons? Seriously, who will attack a country like India? There's nothing to gain. Overpopulated, polluted, hot and filthy: first four words that come to my mind when I think about India. Save your money from sneaky French. Use it for some basic development work.
MoD is taking a good stand..as per the earlier interactions with France,These guys are too smart..they sell their aircrafts cheap and the spares at too high cost. This is their technique to grab extra pounds separating out the production contract.
What Dassault said was simple, if HAL builds Rafale, don't expect the aircraft to be in same quality of the 18 aircrafts we buy directly from Dassault. Assuming if HAL was able to do that. But HAL was able to build SU30MKI may be RAFALE is totally different. I just wish HAL uses quality materials instead of 2nd grade junk to make some profit for their own.
Unless HAL is made a party..how MOD and HAL babus will get a share of the $20 bn pie…Euro fighter and Boeing has already set MOD to stall this some how so as to get F-18 or Typhoon on the stage again.
For Euro fighter selling Typhoon is their prime business interest.
For US to sell F-18 is their Strategic interest (Get IAF dependent on US spares and Support)because in the future a Nuclear powerful India can not be pressurized..unless India has strategic dependency on US(Post Pokhran-2 learning for US).
MOD should agree to Dassult's suggestion else it's going to be another MDL-Scorpene Story where MDL directors chosen sub-standard materials for their own benefit and Scorepene delivery from MDL will run into years of delay.
And sold MOD babus will get a chance to blame DCNS for delay in delivery to hide the activities of MDL directors/managers.
You either produce your own aircraft from scratch (like a real power), or you buy it from someone else on their terms. What is all this dithering about? Get your act together, corrupt Indian govt, or go wholeheartedly with the LCA.
MOD and HAL are known for their posturing and this is a good example. Dassault can be held responsible if the product is found defective or not to standards. Can we say the same for HAL ?
Is HAL so important – why can't we have the private sector do it. What's the problem in Indian private sector taking it up, if we are buying it anyways from private companies in France and the US. After all, are Dassault, Boeing, Thales, Lockheed Martin Indian public sector companies ?
Americans won t supply you the know how. In any case the problem is same….they will just say yes and then in the end of the day blame HAL for not deli vering….the problem is much deeper than french chor…its really asking whether india is serious about getting serious in aerospace sector…
Indian @ 8:58 PM.
If we are so worried about the US having some control over us if we buy the F-18, then guess what, we now transferred that control over to the French by the way of the MMRCA deal. If you want independence, then there is only one route you can take, cook your own stuff at home. French already have us by our b@lls with the subs and other things. and what have we got in return, besides delays. I would say the reality of today is different than in 1998. India is not so easy to push around. But, from my angle it looks like we have no confidence in ourselves and thus we worry about these things that happened in the past but are not likely to happen now. People forget how India, by helping the Russians, during the cold war caused so much pain for the Americans. We have us to blame for US-Paki relations that grew during that time. He put our bets on the wrong horse from day 1, with a hope that Russians were going to give us the Know-How. Guess what, after decades of these TOTs with Russians, we still have no faith in our ability to assemble an aircraft, forget about not yet being able to make a usable fighter jet engine, or even a diesel engine for the Arjun tank. If the last several decased have not taught us that TOT is the wrong thing we are chaising, I am not sure what else can send that message home. I suggest India spend its resources to buy from abroad for the current needs, and develop tech in-house for the needs of the future. No need to waste our time learning how to use a screw-driver, while we have no time or money to accelerate projects like the Tejas.
ToT does not seem to be the issue. Most subsystems are being transferred to non-HAL entities anyways,
HAL is only the final integrator of these.
The tender requirements of HAL being prime integrator does NOT in any way logically lead to the conclusion that the contract must only be structured exactly as MoD (clearly pushed by HAL) is claiming.
If MoD wants to push Dassault into an unlimited liability contract with responsibility for things outside their control, they cannot expect to sign a fixed cost contract. Offer Dassault a 'cost plus' contract and I'm sure they will be happy to cooperate with whatever incompetence HAL wants to offer up.
Develop 500 plus LCA Mk2 and twin engined Mk3 with internal weapons bay and stealth at same price which could undergo continuous upgrades and would remain at cutting edge technology which can undergo same upgrades which are developed for AMCA.Cancel the mirage upgrade as it wasteful upgrade with Israeli help and say au revoir France. How come 10 billion contract became 20 billion and I wont be surprised that in contract radar or engine is missing like scorpene submarines and enormous prices for MICA missiles which we really dont know if it is worth the price.In Libya campaign rafale could be do it alone and F 18 were called and and they cleaned up then Raffles were operational.
Rafale would cost more than double the price as mirage upgrade as avionics upgrade is required every 7-10 years. I am pretty sure that who so ever sanctions this deal would end up in Tihar.
TIMBAKTOO
scrap rafale.. Buy typhoon.. I am damn sure eurofighter 'll do anything to grab this deal..
india should scrap the deal anyways,none of the aircraft worth it
every country will have its own rules, which india will find hard to follow….
india should scrap DASSAULT Rafale and go for Eurofighter Typhoon, it is the only operational aicraft capable to take on F-22 head to head.
if that doesn't work India should Order More Super Su-30mki's,afterall the main objective is to maintain the No. of Squadrons
and last option for us is simple
develop Tejas in Beast, just think
HAL tejas is the smallest aircraft in the world therefore small radar crosssection, just add stealth features , do RAM coating , equip it with powerful engine if possible add another engine
2 engines max thrust, high speed, long range , higher payload capabilities..
incorporate elbit cockpit NG, develop Conformal Fuel tanks and there we have our true indegenious fighter…..
LSP 8 has been flown sucessfully , this is the sign that india is cruising in right direction……JUST THINK
HAL CAN DO IT…….
scrap the MMRCA nd get more MKIs….the light fighter concept is for cost savings like f-15 & f-16 pair or the su-27 & mig 29 pair…the cheaper nd lighter aircraft making up about 2/3rds nd the costly heavy aircraft 1/3rd…however rafale nd eurofighter both cost equal to or more than the MKI…thus no point in going for a knematically inferior aircraft for the same price…..upgrade MKIs nd get more of them…i guess everyone would agree that the MKI is the best fighter today after the raptor..
It's amazing how so many posts are about HAL's supposedly "inefficiencies". The frogs knew the terms of the contract when they entered MMRCA competition which stipulated that the winner of the competition share complete ToT wrt critical technologies. They did promise the Sun and the Moon to win the competition. Now once the results are out they have started piping a different tune.
Dump the French as they have swindled us in the Scorpene subs deal. Go for F35 as full partner in the program. F35 will help us gain knowledge in developing 5th gen fighters.
Hello Everyone,
Would like to tell 2 things after observing this whole procurement process.
1. It is quiet possible that RIL and Dassault have an interest in keeping out HAL out of this due to financial reasons. I am very against RIL (a petrochemical company attempting to manufacture aircrafts) poking its nose everywhere. Reliance will screw the nation on this.
2. Government wants greater role for HAL so that during its divestment the government earns some extra money. HAL is on the list of companies to be divested. Rafale assembly to HAL is definitely in Governments interest and i would support this. The only problem is, god knows when this divestment would happen.
My two cents.
Regards,
Sudheendra S
People forget something here, USA also raised the same doubt about HAL's capability to manufacture their aircrafts. Also if we look at SU30MKI, we are making manufacturing most of the components inside our country not just assembling it, a way to develop our domestic industry. Dassault may ask for variable money if there is a delay because of HAL's incapability to observe TOT and Dassault expects it not to be blamed when the aircrafts manufactured by HAL is not up to the quality. Both reasons are valid, I think India will accept the first one and regarding the quality, we need to find out a way to maintain the quality of the aircrafts produced indigenously, may be a separate team to oversee it. Even if Eurofighter is selected it will find it more difficult to involve with HAL than Dassault and we need to wait for 6 countries approval for any TOT or any changes., its a nightmare to deal with.
the hal has been shown its aukat by dassult these are aircrafts not the aeromodels
Just wait till PAK FA is ready… You have enough SU 30
Scrap the deal. Use the money to develop indigenous tech. That will the serve the country better in the long run. Short term fixes benefit only the corrupt.
we indians are fools rather than 20$ billions on rafales we shud have gone for Russian,upgraded suhkois mki or SU35,since we alredy have Tejas in that category.
Rafale can carry external payload equaling the entire LOADED weight of Tejas.
Rafale has more external payload capacity than Su-30 MKI (barely).
The technology associated with manufacturing the Rafale is just too complex. I would highly suggest India forgets about trying to build a single Rafale and just buy 64 of them in fly-away condition.
HAL Cannot do this project