Now here's what the article fails to throw light on: 1) How exactly will the most survivable element of India's strategic nuclear triad (the SSBN and its on-board SLBMs) provide credible deterrence when the SLBMs have a range of no more than 5,000km? Why is the DRDO unable to develop an SLBM with a range of 8,000km, as mandated in the so-called 'classified' report prepared by Admiral (Ret'd) Arun Prakash? 2) How will the 10-metre long K-15 or the 12-metre long K-4 be made to fit into the 10-metre diameter pressure hull of the Arihant SSBN? 3) Who will validate the results of the combination of the K-15/K-4 and the Arihant in terms of vessel stability/buoyancy and personnel safety? The DRDO or the Russians? 4) What are the technical glitches with the Arihant? Do they concern the on-board nuclear reactor and is that the reason why the n-reactor has not yet received its consignment of n-fuel rods? Or is it is design problem since the n-reactor design provided by the Russians was originally meant for a nuclear ice-breaker, and not for a SSBN? Is the DAE therefore now facing some previously unforeseen but fundamental design/containment problems? 5) Will the DAE and DRDO be able to develop completely new n-warheads for the SLBM, since existing warhead designs meant for the Agni family of ballistic missiles will be totally unsuitable for the SLBMs? 6) Consequently, won't the n-warheads of the SLBMs require additional testing–aka Shatki-3 series of tests? 7) Lastly, will India's political decision-makers have the balls to authorise a standalone, ready-to-fire nuclear arsenal to proceed on operation al patrols in peacetime and wartime into the deep waters of the Indian Ocean at a time when it insists on keeping the land-based ballistic missiles' n-warheads and their plutonium-based cores under the DRDO's and DAE's custody, and not with the Strategic Forces Command, which is left with only an inventory warhead-less ballistic missiles?
Surely this is the first article, giving details about India's SLBM program.If it's true then India is doing quite well in countering China. But in my view these programs should be kept under the shroud only till they are in development because K-4 SLBM once inducted, will surely be india'a biggest deterrence against China.I hope we will soon see the videos of the K-4.
The image of Arihant given in this issue is not the newest one. It is the same image that is posted in India today. Check the post in Live fist on Aug 6th 2009. http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/08/arihant.html … Even the person standing on Arihant appears exactly in the same place.
Gladdens the heart like nothing else does…always knew Indians were the brightest compared to the rest of the world with an ancient culture of learning….this had to happen….inspite of the poor so called 'system' prevailing in india…imagine what could be achieved if we had a good 'system' going for us too….Indians are the smartest and this will show up more and more in future..JAI HIND…
its heartening to note that india too has been building up covertly. because as of now, all we have been hearing is how china and pakistan are racing ahead of us in terms of nuclear and other capabilities.
Superbly awesome knowing about k-4 for first time. if this type Of world class missile technology are present with DRDO it should be utilised by keeping dirty politics by side watever HATSOFF for by DRDO. details On k-4 please.
Also 5000km is too low, need 6500+ to be a flexible sea based nuclear strike weapon so we can place the submarine any where we want and yet strike targets in enemy territory.
Need at least 4 SSBNs each with 12-24 such missiles each armed with a minimum of 8 warheads/decoys capable of being assigned different targets.
And the submarines must be fast and quiet enough to avoid enemy naval fleets. Probably even bigger to accommodate 12-24 missiles, 4 just won't cut it.
All this before we can even begin to be considered a major power. Heck countries like UK and France have more and better nukes and delivery system than us.
Off course even better if no one had nukes at all but….
Good to see the development of K-4. The K-4 must serve as a intermediate missile until the final K-Big ballistic missile for the services are inducted into service. It must have a range of minimum 8,000 km and if possible to have a range of 10,000 km similar to the M51 class of missile in terms of range. That's the only way India will have a credible nuclear strike capability.
If India Today knows about the K missiles, I'm sure that all other intelligence agencies must have picked it up much before that. Nothing in India's defence system is secret. Remember Lockheed Martin, they had classified defence ministry documents that they sent back by mistake to the ministry. If even foreign companies can have such easy access to India's defence secrets imagine what type of clout intelligence agencies have in India. Anyways Congress party has had CIA moles in them for decades and since Congress is in power, rest assured CIA gets all these details even before Manmohan Singh ji gets them. And hold off your celebrations till this thing has fully operationalised, it may be decades before we get to see this work.
shiv do u endorse this k4 news when did we tested 3k slbm if u endorse i will assume india too maintaining secracy and i assume arihant 2,3 are ready even they may be sailing in seas
'Consequently, won't the n-warheads of the SLBMs require additional testing–aka Shatki-3 series of tests?'
how did UK and USA switch to the newer trident system and not conduct any nuclear tests in that time? How is France making their newer missiles without testing the new warheads?
Besides, all these powers constantly improve the warhead design, they don't test.
I believe there is enough computer simulation capability now and ground testing is not absolutely necessary.
@ Prasun sengupta-How will the 10-metre long K-15 or the 12-metre long K-4 be made to fit into the 10-metre diameter pressure hull of the Arihant SSBN?
The missiles can be kept horizontally and can be launced semi – vertically as and when required.The hull's diameter need not be necessarily bigger than the missile lenghth
K-4 or K-15 are kept top secret as compared to much publicized projects like prithvi or Agni. I thin we also have a top secret project for ICBM called "SURYA" with a range of 10-12,000 Kms. and has been much talked about including in WIKIPEDIA.
No K-4 has a range of 5000 Kms. Now i have heard that there will be a version of Agni-V SLBM ith a range of 5,500 Kms. Now will this be scrapped since the K-4 is already there ??
1. If this true , then it should have been kept secret and not published. 2. Now that its is out of the bag, DRDO will be more accountable to produce a result 3. AS Prasun has clearly said, the missile-sub match ? No one is talking about that 4. I was earlier ridiculed for calling the Prithvi more closer to the V2 of WW2 fame. Now this report makes it clear that the traveling circus of vehicles makes it extremely vulnerable. 5. I suppose now the Agni is fit only for showering flowers 🙂 6. My own take – standardise on one type and thats that. In fact the missile looks very much like a mini-Polaris. If true, then we can breathe a little easy – however fitful that breath might be.
Well different people different arguments but i will say just one thing. First let the Indian scientist run as they r not in the walking condition. We want talent management in that field.Well no comments for this article. The publishers knows the truth and purpose of posting it.
Its a good news they have shown the picture of UGM27 [Polaris SLBM] of US Navy. Its sad for such a good news article. @ Prasun Sengupta: a. The ATV nuclear reactor is complete Indian. Its not Russian. Only consultancy was taken since it was the first time designed and developed in India. b. Warhead designs has got nothing to do whether the Missile is launched from Land or Sea as long as it is contained in the cone. c. Balls of our authorities are very well to eject the required volume.
@KVR 1. If this true , then it should have been kept secret and not published. Please keep quiet and don't tell this to your neighbours. That way we can keep it secret. We can ask Shiv Aroor to publish blog entry saying that it was a nice story written by some journalist (pl give me some idea on how we make readers of this blog entry as scoop.)
The missiles can be kept horizontally and can be launced semi – vertically as and when required.The hull's diameter need not be necessarily bigger than the missile lenghth
SLBMs (not talking of other missiles) are vertically placed in line with gravity (absolutely perpendicular) and fired as such. There is loading and launching problem otherwise.
Sometimes the possiblity (on paper) is incongrouos with practicality.
@RP 6:42pm, My thoughts exactly. What is the point of DRDO making a song and dance of something not totally proven yet. Why warn your enemies of what 'MAY' be accomplished[by 2017] and help them plan for it.
Parthvader: When you're giving the US, UK and French examples you're talking about an existing SSBN operator upgrading its arsenal of SLBMs by discarding the old type in favour of newer designs, and NOT by adapting the n-warheads of land-based ballistic missiles for use by SLBMs. In addition, both the US and France along with the Russians and Chinese had until the mid-1990s periodically tested and consequently improved their respective SLBM-specific n-warheads. In India's case, one has to develop the SLBM's warhead from scratch as it had, by May 1998, only tested the warhead designs meant for land-based ballistic missiles. And as you may have read in the INDIA TODAY article (read it carefully oncev again if you missed it), the K-15/K-4 programme formally got underway in only 2004. Therefore, no purpose-built n-warhead designed for an SLBM was tested back in May 1998, simply because no one had by then envisaged the need for SLBMs!
To pranav: Fitment of the SLBMs within the Arihant's pressure hull is indeed the most technologically challenging task, something which only the US, French and the UK have succeeded for their SSBN fleets. The Russians and Chinese have not, till this day and hence their SSBNs always sport the distinctive hump over and above the pressure hull. And this in turn makes things pretty dangerous for such an SSBN, especially if it were to be involved in underwater collisions of the type the Soviets encountered during the Cold War. Can you give me any example from any existing Navy that keeps its SLBMs horizontally and launches them semi-vertically as and when required? Mind you, I'm asking you about SLBMs, and not anti-ship cruise missiles.
To winnie: When you claim that the ATV reactor is complete Indian, how exactly do you define the operative term 'complete Indian'? Is it like the case of the Su-30MKI, which everyone from the MoD to HAL claims to be a made-in-India product? I'm asking you this because till to date, no one authority from the MoD or the DAE has emphatically stated that the ATV's n-reactor was designed and developed in India. If you read any of Dr Anil Kakodkar's interviews after July 26, 2009. all he states is that the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) has built the miniaturised n-reactor. Now, that again is disinformation since BARC on its own has never had any in-house capability to design any kind of n-reactor, leave alone a PWR. The domestically-made 220mW and 540mW n-reactors and and FBTR were designed and engineered by specialists hailing from NPCIL. The steam generators, heat exchangers and propulsion systems were built (and not designed) by the likes of L & T and Walchandnagar Industries that had industrial tie-ups with their Russian counterparts, facts which the companies themselves gave out at DEFEXPO 2010 last February. Lastly, had the ATV's n-reactor been a homegrown contemporary design, it would then have had a lifespan of at least 25 years. Instead, as has been revealed by Rear Admiral (Ret'd) Raja Menon (a member of the NSC), the Arihant's n-reactor has only a 10-year lifespan! This crucial revelation clearly proves that the Arihant's n-reactor is of early 1980s vintage. And we all know through Capt (Ret'd) Subbarao's statements that the DAE, till 1988, had not even mastered the theoretical aspects of PWRs, leave alone design and production engineering!
How exactly will the most survivable element of India's strategic nuclear triad (the SSBN and its on-board SLBMs) provide credible deterrence when the SLBMs have a range of no more than 5,000km?
Prasun 5k range is enough, Arihant is a mobile platform, India can strike any US city/NATO cluster countries if the need be.
Lastly, will India's political decision-makers have the balls to authorise a standalone, ready-to-fire nuclear arsenal to proceed on operation al patrols in peacetime and wartime into the deep waters of the Indian Ocean at a time when it insists on keeping the land-based ballistic missiles' n-warheads and their plutonium-based cores under the DRDO's and DAE's custody, and not with the Strategic Forces Command, which is left with only an inventory warhead-less ballistic missiles?
India has a cautious approach with no first use doctrine. Proliferation of workable (land based) warhead is a possiblity, but such wont be the case with SLBMs, for prowling nuclear submarines wont be called back from International water for mating warheads with thier cones.
SLBMs are always kept in ready to fire mode (thats where PMs black briefcase will come handy;)
Perfecting nuclear weapon designs is serious business. Nuclear weapon states resort to serial testing to achieve the desired level of sophistication, and use computers to supplement and refine design. In contrast, a small section of the scientific lobby here considers design by computer simulation as the main plank, using data from the single TN test of dubious provenience. It is like attempting to draw a meaningful curve with one dot on the graph. If computer simulation were an effective credible substitute for testing why should anyone be concerned about testing at all? Where is the need for CTBT? Weapons states were not stupid to waste resources on testing in spite of possessing more powerful computers than us.
Also compared to gripen or any other fighter the air intakes are very small , dnt know how engine receives sufficient air intake??
The geomatery of intake duct is relative to engine parameters, performance, and max throttle. Depending upon the max thrust of the engine, certain numbers of square inch duct be sized for adequate suction to maintain the EPR. Also there is a temp limit of a compressed hot air within the engine to be taken into account. The rate of air flow speed IS crucial.
The intake design has big impact on motor´s thrust versus velocity characteristics should you fly supersonic.
A Trident D5 is ~44 ft tall. If kept entirely within the pressure hull, that means a silo that’s somewhere on the order of ~45-50 ft tall … which means a cylindrical diameter of ~50 ft (~15.25m) for the submarine.
The optimal length:width ratio for albacore hulls for submarines is (iirc) 10.5:1. This would then imply a ~525 ft (~106m) length. A purely cylindrical volume of ~7.625m radius and ~106m length results in a volume of ~19,361 cubic meters … which is a submerged neutral buoyancy of ~19,400 tons (upper limit). Now … you could pull some geometric tricks to lower that volume … by putting the silos inside a sail structure for instance, allowing you to use a smaller diameter pressure hull, thereby reducing the overall length (and thus, tonnage).
So here’s the basic problem. The height of the Trident D5 missile places some pretty firm minimum size constraints on any submarine which can carry the missile in a vertical launch position. Change that to a horizontal launch configuration and you might be able to “fit” a Trident D5 into something under 10,000 tons submerged.
Now this the US navy is really trying hard to achieve.
Actually the "K" series as we made advances on solid fuel rocket technology. it is but natural we will gradually supplant a feet of tuff to maintain and load liquid fuel missiles with solid fuel ones , wwhich are very robust and can be stored longer. This was part of "kalam's ' vision to make it more cost friendly to maintain a missile fleet.
About maintaining secrecy of such projects, it is very difficult as you all know about madhuri kappor, and the ilk and also a secret service of even tasmania penetrates deep into indian (politicos) givernment as they are all about filling pockets. So, it is almost 'impossible' to maintain secrecy in indian case.
The significant observation is the same "lack of project management skills" in a different way. if DRDO scientists are managed by any other organization, they do a better job.
To [email protected]: The figure of 8,000km isn't a figment of my imagination. Rather, this figure has repeatedly been given out by several senior Indian Navy officials, including former Navy Chiefs, who have also clearly stated that the Indian SSBN fleet will not be operating in either the Bay of Bengal or South China Sea (for reasons that are obvious), but exclusively in the southern end of the Indian Ocean off Maldives. Thus the designated area of operations for the Indian SSBNs will be the IOR, as per Indian Navy utterances.
To [email protected]: I'm aware of the SLBM's ready-to-fire mode status. And this is where the problem will likely arise, since even with a no-first use doctrine, quick and decisive decisions would have to be taken, for which a matching command-and-control system will need to be in place. That. till this day, remains highly elusive in India, since the GoI is in no mood to establish the institution of the Chief of Defence Staff which, by the way, cannot be substituted by either the existing Chiefs of Staff Committee or by a briefcase (black or otherwise) belonging to the PM.
Why do you want to have SLBM in the pressure hull ? If there is an accident, the hull won't be damaged. With regards to the distinctive hump, both US & Russian subs have them. Checkout Ohio-class and the Typhoon class subs.
Also, coming back to warheads, land based and submarine based have the same core may be different casings & controllers. It is the core which require n-testing. Different controllers dont require them, as one can be verified by comparing with the older ones.
To Pranav: Interesting dilemma in terms of SSBN hull design challenges. But I for one don't foresee the advent of SLBMs in horizontal launch configurations.
To Rajat: Very pertinent question indeed. Why this self-imposed limitation then? Could it be that the deal struck with the Russians back on June 21, 1998 (under a secret annexure when signing the contract for for the two 1,000mW VVER light water reactors for Koodankulam project) was limited strictly to submarine-based applications of the Russia-supplied n-reactor design?
To [email protected]: Hey, it's not me that wants the SLBMs contained within the pressure hull! Ask the world's operators of SSBNs and they will tell you why exactly they prefer the SLBM silos to be encased within the SSBN's pressure hull. Even the Soviets realised the disadvantages of the SLBM silos jutting out of the pressure hull (as in the case of Project 667BDR Kalmar/Project 667BDRM SSBNs) and quickly proceeded to overcome them by introducing the Type 941 Akula-class SSBN that did away with the distinctive humps noticeable on the Project 667BDR/667BDRM-class SSBNs. This was done by increasing the SSBN's displacement, beamwidth and draught. If one were to apply this kind of experience on the ATV programme, there's no way a K-4 or its 5,000km-range growth version can fit on the 6,000-tonne Arihant. The only way to make it fit will be to introduce the 'distinctive hump' on the Arihant at a later stage, something which the Indian Navy is reportedly against. Regarding the SLBM's warheads, yes, the core will definitely require n-testing.
To [email protected]: It's not about negativity or positivity, nor is it about critising. One is only trying to share opinions and observations in an objective manner. Does that hurt you?
You have lifted n shifted above (word by word) from this site, fine.
Please tell me which Navy fires SLBM through the sail aka conning tower, which houses Radar Antenna, Radio Antenna, Navigation periscope, Attack perscope, multipurpose Antenna among all, and below that you have 2 have a operation control room with Fire Control System, right?
Already the square foot price in the Nuke Submarine is much more higher than hot properties of Cuff Parade/Marine Drive. I mean there is hardly place within the already cramped up interior of Submarine.
The other thing being extreme heat produced by the blast (hot launch) and subsequent shock n vibrations produced to disturb the Radar n Radio antenna´s harmoney.
So firing SLBM through conning tower – look b4 you leap!
Imagination is one thing, puting things into practice is another!
And finally dont confuse yrself between SLBM n SLCM.
Normally SLBMs are fired from the top of the hull.
On nuke testing we fooled Yanks by first saying its all peaceful. (1974 explosion), In 1998 we decieved CIA´s satellite.
Similarly, Arihant can be anywhere in the open sea, without paying heed to what admiral has to say about its area of operation as of now. Threat perception changes from time to time. Today its Maldives, tommorow it could be Malaysia, for Nuke submarines activity is not confined within fix areas perpetually.
If it does not rock n roll, prowl into the international water far away from home, then what is it meant for;)
Navy chief gives some statements for public consumptions overseas, its a ploy to decieve the adversary aur apna uloo sidha karo;)
On nuke CnC…. SFC is part of the Nuclear Command Authority (NCA – nodal agency for all command, control and operational decisions regarding India's nuclear weapon stockpile) and it (SFC) is responsible for the management and administration of the country's tactical and strategic nuclear weapons stockpile.
And since Manmohan Singh heads the NCA, he is supposed to fiddle with codes within black briefcase.
When we signed the dotted lines of 1-2-3 agreement, we gave a pledge to not test further. Hence the tests are frozen, and India has been pinned 1-2-3 by US referee.
Also, coming back to warheads, land based and submarine based have the same core may be different casings & controllers
Same core?
How is it a same core in half tonne warhead and a one tonne warhead (assuming a fission chain reaction) What about the quantity of fissile material? whether its HEU or PU-239 based?
Hiroshama yield was 12 kiloton with 50 kilo HEU, whereas the nagasaki one had 22 kiloton yield with just 7 kilo of plutonium!
Then again, why is India into miniaturisation of its nuke warheads to fit the smallest of its missiles?
@Prasun K. Sengupta @pranav @prasun @keshto And Master Shiv
Please care to clarify, i am really greatly disturbed. On PDF a decently rated Indian guy said that K4 is Polaris painted in Indian colors. Said something about Prithvi being totally Russian also.
Prasun made some valid points. The countries someone mentioned do both computer based testing a well as live warheads stimulation. Plus, those countries have done countless testing so they a wide range of data available. At the same time, most missile testing in the US a democratic country is done secretly even space launches of spy satellites. So, if these Western Democratic countries can conduct secret military testing, why not India. India is making a grave mistake by exposing all her cards anytime. It is a tactical blunder because it allows her enemies to build counter defenses to the new weaponry. Also, it allow China to help identify Pakistan's weakness and thus "gift" at friendship prices weapons that close the gap that we try to widen in vain. Sometimes, we are our own worst enemy. That being said, its a great morale booster for our ppl. But we need to learn from others that have worked hard for many years secretly and only NOW are we getting a hint of what they were doing in the past. We need to transform policy. I can't believe this fundamental mistake is happening at the upper echelons of defense. They should make it mandatory to read books like "The Art of War" and such, not to simply read and recite but to use this way of thinking and apply it to the present scenario. Come on, think outside of the box. China doesn't announce anything, we need to learn ouch more form our eastern neighbor.
As far as what our missile range should be…..well this is a flaw in India's strategic defense planning. You never know who will be an enemy. The geopolitical landscape changes in the blink of an eye. As a result, it is better to hope for the best but prepare for the worst! Our range should always match and exceed current nations' missiles. it will hep our space industry as well. China is not handicapped by this way of thinking, which allows them to think outside of the box, dream big and build big. Its a time proven formula that works and we need it, coz we need to strengthen our preparedness ASAP. No one respects a non aligned nation only a strong nation. India realizes this and is acting accordingly. It just needs to stay focused, good governance is not only key but is essential to ensure this. We should also be aware of forces that try to manipulate our elections. Think about it, what if Lalu won? Even the Chinese weren't scared of us till recently because we lacked good leadership. Now, they are feeling the heat coz a once backward nation is catching up fast. Let's keep it moving Jai Hind.
Agni III SLBM or K5 with 3 stages is for bigger class of nuke submarines.
5000 km @ 1400 kg payload
11,000 km @ 750 kg payload
source: India's strategic missiles by Arun vishwakarma
Since TN warheads have to go through confirmatory tests, Fusion boosted fission warheads will be used or a mixture of TN and FBF warheads will be used.
11,000 km @ 750 kg –
3 x 250 kg TN warheads, with 600 kilotons yield
or
2 x 340 kg FBF warheads – with 300 kilotons yield.
Also, be sure to cleanse the cold sore frequently with peroxide or alcohol. Cold sores are the visible result of the herpes virus replication process. To cover the topic fully, the elements of herbs, spiritual outlook, connections between all living things, energy flow and other components of the human body, mind, and soul that affect our wellness need to be discussed as well.
"He said the AMCA would have an operational range of 30 km"
What are they building? A stealth microlight? 😛
Ignore my previous comment it was meant for he Hindu article about India's stealth combat aircraft.
Now,India can hit pakistan and china with nuke subs sitting safely in bay of bengal.cheers to drdo!!!!!!!!!!
what about the picture of Arihant on the third page?
is it official?
Drdo has given the best answers for all critisms.
These missiles are going to be china's and pakistan's nightmare
these missiles will give china sleepless nights
if pakistan pm knows this he will never open his mouth about india.go india go nuke all pak ass
I was confident all the while of DRDO but today I will sleep without taking Zolfresh medicine keep it up India
WoW Arihant look's cool,K-4 project is super cool.
Now here's what the article fails to throw light on:
1) How exactly will the most survivable element of India's strategic nuclear triad (the SSBN and its on-board SLBMs) provide credible deterrence when the SLBMs have a range of no more than 5,000km? Why is the DRDO unable to develop an SLBM with a range of 8,000km, as mandated in the so-called 'classified' report prepared by Admiral (Ret'd) Arun Prakash?
2) How will the 10-metre long K-15 or the 12-metre long K-4 be made to fit into the 10-metre diameter pressure hull of the Arihant SSBN?
3) Who will validate the results of the combination of the K-15/K-4 and the Arihant in terms of vessel stability/buoyancy and personnel safety? The DRDO or the Russians?
4) What are the technical glitches with the Arihant? Do they concern the on-board nuclear reactor and is that the reason why the n-reactor has not yet received its consignment of n-fuel rods? Or is it is design problem since the n-reactor design provided by the Russians was originally meant for a nuclear ice-breaker, and not for a SSBN? Is the DAE therefore now facing some previously unforeseen but fundamental design/containment problems?
5) Will the DAE and DRDO be able to develop completely new n-warheads for the SLBM, since existing warhead designs meant for the Agni family of ballistic missiles will be totally unsuitable for the SLBMs?
6) Consequently, won't the n-warheads of the SLBMs require additional testing–aka Shatki-3 series of tests?
7) Lastly, will India's political decision-makers have the balls to authorise a standalone, ready-to-fire nuclear arsenal to proceed on operation al patrols in peacetime and wartime into the deep waters of the Indian Ocean at a time when it insists on keeping the land-based ballistic missiles' n-warheads and their plutonium-based cores under the DRDO's and DAE's custody, and not with the Strategic Forces Command, which is left with only an inventory warhead-less ballistic missiles?
I keep thinking… What is better?
1) Chini style secrecy of military capability until well proven and deployed, there by avoiding an assessment of "our capabilities" by the enemy.
2) Or an India / DRDO style talk more of what will be delivered in next 10 odd years with a track record that might easily stretch it to 15 years.
Its as if, we actually give the enemy to start "proper" 5 to 10 year strategic programs to counter our budding capability.
What's your view on this Shiv?
Is tat picture in last is INS ARIHANT?????looks awesome
Surely this is the first article, giving details about India's SLBM program.If it's true then India is doing quite well in countering China.
But in my view these programs should be kept under the shroud only till they are in development because K-4 SLBM once inducted, will surely be india'a biggest deterrence against China.I hope we will soon see the videos of the K-4.
"This is the world's best weapon in its class"
That is a grand news…
I can not say about the taxpayers, but sino and paki will be certainly twisting and burning to the core with this revelation.
Accuracy of AGNI….its not surprising…its by DRDO.
Looks like whenever DRDO is doing Missile testing we have to go underground….
A nuclear tipped DRDO missile may hit Delhi / Mumbai wrongly in the name of testing.
We dont need Paki or chinki to launch Nuclear attacks. DRDO itself will do that Job.
Regards,
TAX PAYER
The image of Arihant given in this issue is not the newest one. It is the same image that is posted in India today. Check the post in Live fist on Aug 6th 2009. http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/08/arihant.html … Even the person standing on Arihant appears exactly in the same place.
Gladdens the heart like nothing else does…always knew Indians were the brightest compared to the rest of the world with an ancient culture of learning….this had to happen….inspite of the poor so called 'system' prevailing in india…imagine what could be achieved if we had a good 'system' going for us too….Indians are the smartest and this will show up more and more in future..JAI HIND…
I was always confident that DRDO would do it.To day I can sleep without any Zolfresh (Medicine) keep it up DRDO.
Welcome K family and arihant.
why cant you find anything in small arms news too
This was first posted in defenceforum.in not in BR.
its heartening to note that india too has been building up covertly. because as of now, all we have been hearing is how china and pakistan are racing ahead of us in terms of nuclear and other capabilities.
Unbelievable but a SALUTE to DRDO Scientist
yippi….i am the first one to comment…haha
K series missiles are very promising…..
Superbly awesome knowing about k-4 for first time. if this type Of world class missile technology are present with DRDO it should be utilised by keeping dirty politics by side watever HATSOFF for by DRDO. details On k-4 please.
Bullshit I don't believe it.
Prove it to me and I still won't believe it.
SHOW IT TO ME! SHOW ME THE MISSILE!
Also 5000km is too low, need 6500+ to be a flexible sea based nuclear strike weapon so we can place the submarine any where we want and yet strike targets in enemy territory.
Need at least 4 SSBNs each with 12-24 such missiles each armed with a minimum of 8 warheads/decoys capable of being assigned different targets.
And the submarines must be fast and quiet enough to avoid enemy naval fleets. Probably even bigger to accommodate 12-24 missiles, 4 just won't cut it.
All this before we can even begin to be considered a major power. Heck countries like UK and France have more and better nukes and delivery system than us.
Off course even better if no one had nukes at all but….
Is this K-4 hypersonic or will it be in Future and what is thing going on that it is Polaris painted in Indian colors.
In the second page 2nd column it says K-15 flies at 7 times the speed of sound. Really, is is hypersonic.?. Or did he mean several times.?
India to spend heavily on new stealth fighter
Good to see the development of K-4. The K-4 must serve as a intermediate missile until the final K-Big ballistic missile for the services are inducted into service. It must have a range of minimum 8,000 km and if possible to have a range of 10,000 km similar to the M51 class of missile in terms of range. That's the only way India will have a credible nuclear strike capability.
people…the sub seems AKULA to me rather ARIHANT ..going by the massive size of the sub …i the image ..
If India Today knows about the K missiles, I'm sure that all other intelligence agencies must have picked it up much before that. Nothing in India's defence system is secret. Remember Lockheed Martin, they had classified defence ministry documents that they sent back by mistake to the ministry. If even foreign companies can have such easy access to India's defence secrets imagine what type of clout intelligence agencies have in India. Anyways Congress party has had CIA moles in them for decades and since Congress is in power, rest assured CIA gets all these details even before Manmohan Singh ji gets them. And hold off your celebrations till this thing has fully operationalised, it may be decades before we get to see this work.
shiv do u endorse this k4 news when did we tested 3k slbm if u endorse i will assume india too maintaining secracy and i assume arihant 2,3 are ready even they may be sailing in seas
@ prasun
'Consequently, won't the n-warheads of the SLBMs require additional testing–aka Shatki-3 series of tests?'
how did UK and USA switch to the newer trident system and not conduct any nuclear tests in that time? How is France making their newer missiles without testing the new warheads?
Besides, all these powers constantly improve the warhead design, they don't test.
I believe there is enough computer simulation capability now and ground testing is not absolutely necessary.
Mr. Max payer, its not surprising that you are one of the pakis and if you go underground than also you cant survive.
Shiv, why do you allow such speople to post here and degrading the discussion???
I salute you DRDO. Thanks for the contribution to the country.
@ Prasun sengupta-How will the 10-metre long K-15 or the 12-metre long K-4 be made to fit into the 10-metre diameter pressure hull of the Arihant SSBN?
The missiles can be kept horizontally and can be launced semi – vertically as and when required.The hull's diameter need not be necessarily bigger than the missile lenghth
K-4 or K-15 are kept top secret as compared to much publicized projects like prithvi or Agni. I thin we also have a top secret project for ICBM called "SURYA" with a range of 10-12,000 Kms. and has been much talked about including in WIKIPEDIA.
No K-4 has a range of 5000 Kms. Now i have heard that there will be a version of Agni-V SLBM ith a range of 5,500 Kms. Now will this be scrapped since the K-4 is already there ??
Sweet lord!
Did no one give even a cursory glance to Prasun's comments?
Sigh! I recall the story of the Ostrich with its head buried in sand.
Folks, please read Prasun's comments.
Again , I have mixed feelings on this one.
1. If this true , then it should have been kept secret and not published.
2. Now that its is out of the bag, DRDO will be more accountable to produce a result
3. AS Prasun has clearly said, the missile-sub match ? No one is talking about that
4. I was earlier ridiculed for calling the Prithvi more closer to the V2 of WW2 fame. Now this report makes it clear that the traveling circus of vehicles makes it extremely vulnerable.
5. I suppose now the Agni is fit only for showering flowers 🙂
6. My own take – standardise on one type and thats that. In fact the missile looks very much like a mini-Polaris. If true, then we can breathe a little easy – however fitful that breath might be.
Rafael Confirms Offer of Iron Dome, David's Sling to Indian Armed Forces
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4813
Interview with Mr. Lova Drori, Executive Vice President, Rafael Advanced Defense Systems
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4811
Well different people different arguments but i will say just one thing. First let the Indian scientist run as they r not in the walking condition. We want talent management in that field.Well no comments for this article. The publishers knows the truth and purpose of posting it.
Its a good news they have shown the picture of UGM27 [Polaris SLBM] of US Navy. Its sad for such a good news article.
@ Prasun Sengupta:
a. The ATV nuclear reactor is complete Indian. Its not Russian. Only consultancy was taken since it was the first time designed and developed in India.
b. Warhead designs has got nothing to do whether the Missile is launched from Land or Sea as long as it is contained in the cone.
c. Balls of our authorities are very well to eject the required volume.
@ Winnie –
The ATV reactor is completely Indian? Oh really?
As for warhead designs, then we should be able to fit in the warhead used in our '98 tests into the Agni's?
Anyway, glad to know you were able to personally verify the capabilities of the balls mentioned. Hope it was fun.
@KVR
1. If this true , then it should have been kept secret and not published.
Please keep quiet and don't tell this to your neighbours. That way we can keep it secret. We can ask Shiv Aroor to publish blog entry saying that it was a nice story written by some journalist (pl give me some idea on how we make readers of this blog entry as scoop.)
The missiles can be kept horizontally and can be launced semi – vertically as and when required.The hull's diameter need not be necessarily bigger than the missile lenghth
SLBMs (not talking of other missiles) are vertically placed in line with gravity (absolutely perpendicular) and fired as such. There is loading and launching problem otherwise.
Sometimes the possiblity (on paper) is incongrouos with practicality.
Prospects are increasing that India will sustain four offerings in its $12-billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program but soon ELIMINATE the MiG-35 and F?16IN from the field.
@RP 6:42pm, My thoughts exactly. What is the point of DRDO making a song and dance of something not totally proven yet. Why warn your enemies of what 'MAY' be accomplished[by 2017] and help them plan for it.
Parthvader: When you're giving the US, UK and French examples you're talking about an existing SSBN operator upgrading its arsenal of SLBMs by discarding the old type in favour of newer designs, and NOT by adapting the n-warheads of land-based ballistic missiles for use by SLBMs. In addition, both the US and France along with the Russians and Chinese had until the mid-1990s periodically tested and consequently improved their respective SLBM-specific n-warheads.
In India's case, one has to develop the SLBM's warhead from scratch as it had, by May 1998, only tested the warhead designs meant for land-based ballistic missiles. And as you may have read in the INDIA TODAY article (read it carefully oncev again if you missed it), the K-15/K-4 programme formally got underway in only 2004. Therefore, no purpose-built n-warhead designed for an SLBM was tested back in May 1998, simply because no one had by then envisaged the need for SLBMs!
To pranav: Fitment of the SLBMs within the Arihant's pressure hull is indeed the most technologically challenging task, something which only the US, French and the UK have succeeded for their SSBN fleets. The Russians and Chinese have not, till this day and hence their SSBNs always sport the distinctive hump over and above the pressure hull. And this in turn makes things pretty dangerous for such an SSBN, especially if it were to be involved in underwater collisions of the type the Soviets encountered during the Cold War. Can you give me any example from any existing Navy that keeps its SLBMs horizontally and launches them semi-vertically as and when required? Mind you, I'm asking you about SLBMs, and not anti-ship cruise missiles.
To winnie: When you claim that the ATV reactor is complete Indian, how exactly do you define the operative term 'complete Indian'? Is it like the case of the Su-30MKI, which everyone from the MoD to HAL claims to be a made-in-India product? I'm asking you this because till to date, no one authority from the MoD or the DAE has emphatically stated that the ATV's n-reactor was designed and developed in India. If you read any of Dr Anil Kakodkar's interviews after July 26, 2009. all he states is that the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) has built the miniaturised n-reactor. Now, that again is disinformation since BARC on its own has never had any in-house capability to design any kind of n-reactor, leave alone a PWR. The domestically-made 220mW and 540mW n-reactors and and FBTR were designed and engineered by specialists hailing from NPCIL. The steam generators, heat exchangers and propulsion systems were built (and not designed) by the likes of L & T and Walchandnagar Industries that had industrial tie-ups with their Russian counterparts, facts which the companies themselves gave out at DEFEXPO 2010 last February. Lastly, had the ATV's n-reactor been a homegrown contemporary design, it would then have had a lifespan of at least 25 years. Instead, as has been revealed by Rear Admiral (Ret'd) Raja Menon (a member of the NSC), the Arihant's n-reactor has only a 10-year lifespan! This crucial revelation clearly proves that the Arihant's n-reactor is of early 1980s vintage. And we all know through Capt (Ret'd) Subbarao's statements that the DAE, till 1988, had not even mastered the theoretical aspects of PWRs, leave alone design and production engineering!
How exactly will the most survivable element of India's strategic nuclear triad (the SSBN and its on-board SLBMs) provide credible deterrence when the SLBMs have a range of no more than 5,000km?
Prasun 5k range is enough, Arihant is a mobile platform, India can strike any US city/NATO cluster countries if the need be.
Lastly, will India's political decision-makers have the balls to authorise a standalone, ready-to-fire nuclear arsenal to proceed on operation al patrols in peacetime and wartime into the deep waters of the Indian Ocean at a time when it insists on keeping the land-based ballistic missiles' n-warheads and their plutonium-based cores under the DRDO's and DAE's custody, and not with the Strategic Forces Command, which is left with only an inventory warhead-less ballistic missiles?
India has a cautious approach with no first use doctrine. Proliferation of workable (land based) warhead is a possiblity, but such wont be the case with SLBMs, for prowling nuclear submarines wont be called back from International water for mating warheads with thier cones.
SLBMs are always kept in ready to fire mode (thats where PMs black briefcase will come handy;)
Parthvader:
Let me quote Indian Express:
Perfecting nuclear weapon designs is serious business. Nuclear weapon states resort to serial testing to achieve the desired level of sophistication, and use computers to supplement and refine design. In contrast, a small section of the scientific lobby here considers design by computer simulation as the main plank, using data from the single TN test of dubious provenience. It is like attempting to draw a meaningful curve with one dot on the graph. If computer simulation were an effective credible substitute for testing why should anyone be concerned about testing at all? Where is the need for CTBT? Weapons states were not stupid to waste resources on testing in spite of possessing more powerful computers than us.
Also compared to gripen or any other fighter the air intakes are very small , dnt know how engine receives sufficient air intake??
The geomatery of intake duct is relative to engine parameters, performance, and max throttle. Depending upon the max thrust of the engine, certain numbers of square inch duct be sized for adequate suction to maintain the EPR. Also there is a temp limit of a compressed hot air within the engine to be taken into account. The rate of air flow speed IS crucial.
The intake design has big impact on motor´s thrust versus velocity characteristics should you fly supersonic.
Three (IB-RAW-NITR) new intelligence chiefs named
Electronic warfare system experts to gather in Bangalore
@Prasun
A Trident D5 is ~44 ft tall. If kept entirely within the pressure hull, that means a silo that’s somewhere on the order of ~45-50 ft tall … which means a cylindrical diameter of ~50 ft (~15.25m) for the submarine.
The optimal length:width ratio for albacore hulls for submarines is (iirc) 10.5:1. This would then imply a ~525 ft (~106m) length. A purely cylindrical volume of ~7.625m radius and ~106m length results in a volume of ~19,361 cubic meters … which is a submerged neutral buoyancy of ~19,400 tons (upper limit). Now … you could pull some geometric tricks to lower that volume … by putting the silos inside a sail structure for instance, allowing you to use a smaller diameter pressure hull, thereby reducing the overall length (and thus, tonnage).
So here’s the basic problem. The height of the Trident D5 missile places some pretty firm minimum size constraints on any submarine which can carry the missile in a vertical launch position. Change that to a horizontal launch configuration and you might be able to “fit” a Trident D5 into something under 10,000 tons submerged.
Now this the US navy is really trying hard to achieve.
Actually the "K" series as we made advances on solid fuel rocket technology. it is but natural we will gradually supplant a feet of tuff to maintain and load liquid fuel missiles with solid fuel ones , wwhich are very robust and can be stored longer. This was part of "kalam's ' vision to make it more cost friendly to maintain a missile fleet.
About maintaining secrecy of such projects, it is very difficult as you all know about madhuri kappor, and the ilk and also a secret service of even tasmania penetrates deep into indian (politicos) givernment as they are all about filling pockets. So, it is almost 'impossible' to maintain secrecy in indian case.
The significant observation is the same "lack of project management skills" in a different way. if DRDO scientists are managed by any other organization, they do a better job.
To [email protected]: The figure of 8,000km isn't a figment of my imagination. Rather, this figure has repeatedly been given out by several senior Indian Navy officials, including former Navy Chiefs, who have also clearly stated that the Indian SSBN fleet will not be operating in either the Bay of Bengal or South China Sea (for reasons that are obvious), but exclusively in the southern end of the Indian Ocean off Maldives. Thus the designated area of operations for the Indian SSBNs will be the IOR, as per Indian Navy utterances.
To [email protected]: I'm aware of the SLBM's ready-to-fire mode status. And this is where the problem will likely arise, since even with a no-first use doctrine, quick and decisive decisions would have to be taken, for which a matching command-and-control system will need to be in place. That. till this day, remains highly elusive in India, since the GoI is in no mood to establish the institution of the Chief of Defence Staff which, by the way, cannot be substituted by either the existing Chiefs of Staff Committee or by a briefcase (black or otherwise) belonging to the PM.
If we have really succeded in creating our own nuclear reactor for arihant, why dont we put a similar one in IAC's?
@Prasun,
Why do you want to have SLBM in the pressure hull ? If there is an accident, the hull won't be damaged. With regards to the distinctive hump, both US & Russian subs have them. Checkout Ohio-class and the Typhoon class subs.
Also, coming back to warheads, land based and submarine based have the same core may be different casings & controllers. It is the core which require n-testing. Different controllers dont require them, as one can be verified by comparing with the older ones.
Can you guys be more positive critics thanks
To Pranav: Interesting dilemma in terms of SSBN hull design challenges. But I for one don't foresee the advent of SLBMs in horizontal launch configurations.
To Rajat: Very pertinent question indeed. Why this self-imposed limitation then? Could it be that the deal struck with the Russians back on June 21, 1998 (under a secret annexure when signing the contract for for the two 1,000mW VVER light water reactors for Koodankulam project) was limited strictly to submarine-based applications of the Russia-supplied n-reactor design?
To [email protected]: Hey, it's not me that wants the SLBMs contained within the pressure hull! Ask the world's operators of SSBNs and they will tell you why exactly they prefer the SLBM silos to be encased within the SSBN's pressure hull. Even the Soviets realised the disadvantages of the SLBM silos jutting out of the pressure hull (as in the case of Project 667BDR Kalmar/Project 667BDRM SSBNs) and quickly proceeded to overcome them by introducing the Type 941 Akula-class SSBN that did away with the distinctive humps noticeable on the Project 667BDR/667BDRM-class SSBNs. This was done by increasing the SSBN's displacement, beamwidth and draught. If one were to apply this kind of experience on the ATV programme, there's no way a K-4 or its 5,000km-range growth version can fit on the 6,000-tonne Arihant. The only way to make it fit will be to introduce the 'distinctive hump' on the Arihant at a later stage, something which the Indian Navy is reportedly against.
Regarding the SLBM's warheads, yes, the core will definitely require n-testing.
To [email protected]: It's not about negativity or positivity, nor is it about critising. One is only trying to share opinions and observations in an objective manner. Does that hurt you?
Pranav 6:36
You have lifted n shifted above (word by word) from this site, fine.
Please tell me which Navy fires SLBM through the sail aka conning tower, which houses Radar Antenna, Radio Antenna, Navigation periscope, Attack perscope, multipurpose Antenna among all, and below that you have 2 have a operation control room with Fire Control System, right?
Already the square foot price in the Nuke Submarine is much more higher than hot properties of Cuff Parade/Marine Drive. I mean there is hardly place within the already cramped up interior of Submarine.
The other thing being extreme heat produced by the blast (hot launch) and subsequent shock n vibrations produced to disturb the Radar n Radio antenna´s harmoney.
So firing SLBM through conning tower – look b4 you leap!
Imagination is one thing, puting things into practice is another!
And finally dont confuse yrself between SLBM n SLCM.
Normally SLBMs are fired from the top of the hull.
Prasun:
On nuke testing we fooled Yanks by first saying its all peaceful. (1974 explosion), In 1998 we decieved CIA´s satellite.
Similarly, Arihant can be anywhere in the open sea, without paying heed to what admiral has to say about its area of operation as of now. Threat perception changes from time to time. Today its Maldives, tommorow it could be Malaysia, for Nuke submarines activity is not confined within fix areas perpetually.
If it does not rock n roll, prowl into the international water far away from home, then what is it meant for;)
Navy chief gives some statements for public consumptions overseas, its a ploy to decieve the adversary aur apna uloo sidha karo;)
On nuke CnC….
SFC is part of the Nuclear Command Authority (NCA – nodal agency for all command, control and operational decisions regarding India's nuclear weapon stockpile) and it (SFC) is responsible for the management and administration of the country's tactical and strategic nuclear weapons stockpile.
And since Manmohan Singh heads the NCA, he is supposed to fiddle with codes within black briefcase.
Singh is the King;)
nuclear reactor for arihant, why dont we put a similar one in IAC's?
Priority is Nuke Sub, hidden assets, (2-3 more to follow)
IAC can wait…..
@ 11:47
When we signed the dotted lines of 1-2-3 agreement, we gave a pledge to not test further. Hence the tests are frozen, and India has been pinned 1-2-3 by US referee.
Also, coming back to warheads, land based and submarine based have the same core may be different casings & controllers
Same core?
How is it a same core in half tonne warhead and a one tonne warhead (assuming a fission chain reaction)
What about the quantity of fissile material? whether its HEU or PU-239 based?
Hiroshama yield was 12 kiloton with 50 kilo HEU, whereas the nagasaki one had 22 kiloton yield with just 7 kilo of plutonium!
Then again, why is India into miniaturisation of its nuke warheads to fit the smallest of its missiles?
@Prasun K. Sengupta
@pranav
@prasun
@keshto
And Master Shiv
Please care to clarify, i am really greatly disturbed.
On PDF a decently rated Indian guy said that K4 is Polaris painted in Indian colors. Said something about Prithvi being totally Russian also.
Prasun made some valid points. The countries someone mentioned do both computer based testing a well as live warheads stimulation. Plus, those countries have done countless testing so they a wide range of data available. At the same time, most missile testing in the US a democratic country is done secretly even space launches of spy satellites. So, if these Western Democratic countries can conduct secret military testing, why not India. India is making a grave mistake by exposing all her cards anytime. It is a tactical blunder because it allows her enemies to build counter defenses to the new weaponry. Also, it allow China to help identify Pakistan's weakness and thus "gift" at friendship prices weapons that close the gap that we try to widen in vain. Sometimes, we are our own worst enemy. That being said, its a great morale booster for our ppl. But we need to learn from others that have worked hard for many years secretly and only NOW are we getting a hint of what they were doing in the past. We need to transform policy. I can't believe this fundamental mistake is happening at the upper echelons of defense. They should make it mandatory to read books like "The Art of War" and such, not to simply read and recite but to use this way of thinking and apply it to the present scenario. Come on, think outside of the box. China doesn't announce anything, we need to learn ouch more form our eastern neighbor.
As far as what our missile range should be…..well this is a flaw in India's strategic defense planning. You never know who will be an enemy. The geopolitical landscape changes in the blink of an eye. As a result, it is better to hope for the best but prepare for the worst! Our range should always match and exceed current nations' missiles. it will hep our space industry as well. China is not handicapped by this way of thinking, which allows them to think outside of the box, dream big and build big. Its a time proven formula that works and we need it, coz we need to strengthen our preparedness ASAP. No one respects a non aligned nation only a strong nation. India realizes this and is acting accordingly. It just needs to stay focused, good governance is not only key but is essential to ensure this. We should also be aware of forces that try to manipulate our elections. Think about it, what if Lalu won? Even the Chinese weren't scared of us till recently because we lacked good leadership. Now, they are feeling the heat coz a once backward nation is catching up fast. Let's keep it moving Jai Hind.
Agni III SLBM or K5 with 3 stages is for bigger class of nuke submarines.
5000 km @ 1400 kg payload
11,000 km @ 750 kg payload
source: India's strategic missiles by Arun vishwakarma
Since TN warheads have to go through confirmatory tests, Fusion boosted fission warheads will be used or a mixture of TN and FBF warheads will be used.
11,000 km @ 750 kg –
3 x 250 kg TN warheads,
with 600 kilotons yield
or
2 x 340 kg FBF warheads – with 300 kilotons yield.
Also, be sure to cleanse the cold sore frequently with peroxide or
alcohol. Cold sores are the visible result of the herpes virus replication process.
To cover the topic fully, the elements of herbs, spiritual outlook, connections between all living things, energy flow and
other components of the human body, mind, and soul that affect our wellness need to be discussed as well.
Visit my web-site; how to get rid Of cold sores