Two days before retiring from service, Air Marshal SC Mukul, the chief of India’s Integrated Defence Staff (IDS) has instructed a Group Captain-rank officer at HQ IDS to prepare a report on the recently revealed Chinese stealth fighter prototype. The report will be India’s official assessment of what, by all accounts, is a Chinese fifth generation platform. The study will, of course, rely mostly on open source material — photographs, graphics, unofficial assessments — on the J-20, though a source of mine indicates that the the officer entrusted with authoring the report will also take inputs from the IAF Directorate of Operations, the Directorate of Naval Aviation, the advanced projects and AMCA divisions of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL), the Aircraft Research & Design Centre at HAL, apart from the R&AW. The report will be provided to the Indian Air Force and the office of the National Security Advisor. The HQ IDS orders studies on foreign weapon programmes as a matter of routine. These assessments, obviously remain classified though files on Pakistan’s air force strength did leak in 2007.
Any links to the Pakistan air force leak?
Perhaps this IAF Group Captain can refer to my reports in FORCE magazine's December 2008 issue and January 2011 issue and TEMPUR magazine's December 2008 and November 2010 issues where there's extensive reportage on not only the J-20, but also on the J-14 variant of the J-10/FC-20 that has yet to be unveilled, plus data and illustrations on the various mission sensors/avionics developed for the J-14 and J-20.
front parts looks like jsf-35 and it seems that chinks have miscalculated length of mid section it looks like much elongated."thik tarah se copy bhi nai karte yar"
http://www.defense-update.com/products/j/29122010_j-20.html
FOUND IT WHILE SURFING ON NET.
http://www.defense-update.com/products/j/29122010_j-20.html
Speed may be equal or less than 1.8 Mach.
How long will it take for this report to be published? Hoppefully not as long as Arjun and Tejas.
Save yourself the trouble and ask the Ameerki to fwd a copy of theirs to you. Bahar ki cheez, desi say kafhi behtar.
Shiv! Ammend your heading to "Cheen Mahan, Hindustan parayshaan!"
Dude! all you babus who approved the PAKFA deal despite what the incognito IAF officer said, will be going "I told you so".
Well they should be worried!
Some here are crying foul over the FGFA deal.
China could have a stealth fighter in service by 2015-2017, not to mention Pakistan getting their hands on it.
While the AMCA, realistically could take 10 – 15 yrs to start flying if it does.
Joint development or not the FGFA deal will be worth every penny.
More pics…
http://club.mil.news.sina.com.cn/thread-303390-1-1.html
Hi Shiv !!!
Many many Greetings of 2011 !!!
I think NLCA & LCA are progressing on its own pace which is quite satisfactory compared to the past but may be you are over emphasizing on IAF & IN. Army is also going through modernization. Pls report on that also; particularly about Rifles, Howitzers, UBGL, ATGMS, and Tanks.
More pics…
http://club.mil.news.sina.com.cn/thread-303390-1-1.html
oh no I'm scared. Lets import F-35.
Beg USA for second hand F-22. Dismantle LCA,AMCA programs import licence for Rafale and F-35.
I found one of such images, it looked like a bird flappin but unable to fly. Not to mention it was ugly as a mule.
@ Prasun
Sadly I am out of India and dont have access to copies of these magazines. Do you have these articles online?
What do you make of these pic posted by "Stevem" on Dec 29th on:
http://china-defense.blogspot.com/
Intentional leaks aimed at increasing militaristic nationalism/pride? Or just plain leaks?
Thank you.
here what came to my mind after reading this…
1. chinese have done no good a job than duplicating a japanese made MP3 player… (just that this time its american fighter jets)
2. We seriously need to privatise our defence sector…
Now as J-20 is slowly turning in to a reality, it is imperative that Sukhoi T-50/FGFA and AMCA shall also be taken up very seriously.
If the need be then indigenous efforts for a stealthier LCA-mk3 shall be initiated considering it to be a two-front theory.
PAK-FA looks dated in comparison.
Well its an obvious thing!in my observation.j20 will b more of a bomber than fighter(its BIG!).hence could b an attack bomber!Its time,WE HACK THEIR SYSTEMS,just as they did!what say guys?
Why are Indians already soiling their pants? It shows weakness. Pakistan does not worry about F-22, J-20 or PAK FA. We only want to live in peace. Maybe this is a good sign that PAF will receive this J-20 beast soon to control the skies over India.
I heard that HAL report on J20 will be available along with the AMCA which is 20 years from now on.
To Heberian: Regretably only sections of every article every month are posted on-line and there are no archival facilities in the webpages of both FORCE and TEMPUR. What I do is normally break up the show reports (like those in China and Pakistan) into various sections like combat aircraft, helicopters, UAV & UCAVs, engines, air defence systems, avionics, field artillery, armour, etc, especially for TEMPUR magazine where I have some 22 pages made available to me in every issue. That in turn enables me to do a comprehensive show report, something which I have been doing since 1996, ever since my first visit to Zhuhai to attend the aerospace expos there.
During the Airshow China 2008 expo (which, sadly, no journalist from India covered), several sub-systems of the JXX/J-20 and J-14 were showcased for the first time and sometime in February 2009 HQ IDS had contacted me to submit a comprehensive reportage (running into 70+ pages) on the J-14 and JXX/J-20 projects, which I did.
Sometime last october there was a senior PLAAF General who gave an interview to CCTV in which he had confirmed that a fourth-generation MRCA would be rolled out at Chengdu before the year's end. What was not known at that time was whether it would be the J-14 or the JXX/J-20. Therefore, the emergence of photos of the latter from December 23 (interestingly, only 24 hours AFTER the FGFA's R & D agreement signature between Delhi and Moscow) was not much of a surprise. What will be interesting is what engines and avionics suites will go on board the JXX/J-20, as neither the WS-15 turbofan nor any AESA-based MMR were highlighted in any manner at Zhuhai last November.
looks like india's fears have been answered at last. it was always known that china would be deploying a 5gen fighter by 2020, even by american intel but deep down it was known china would do it before that, i.e. probably by 2015 and if this is true, this looks the case now.
as far as the shape of this thing goes, its a 90% copy of the F35, no doubt on that, just that i believe, its not a case of bad copy because this jet is vying against F22 and its not an F35 class jet, its a bigger thing with bigger capabilities. so anyone here who thinks china is not copying it right is wrong i guess. they know what they re doing. i think china today also said that it is preparing for war in every direction..perhaps meaning theyre preparing to take on any country in the world with intimidating capability. i think their missiles and carrier plans are begining to be a real factor here, added to that is technology like this. this sure looks a much better jet than the PAKFA for now as far as the shape goes…but there will be question marks on its performance and sensor fusion. where f35 lacks is made up by its top notch sensor fusion and immense stealth. ok, theres some stealth in j20 but how much it really can fuse info tactically and strategically is yet to be seen. chinese are not really good with anything they dont have info of and they screw it up. lets see how this evolves but sure is the next big thing for china.
Given the size of the thing, looks like PLAAF for some years to come will still be a PLA "Air Atillery"
This plane is "bomb truck with internal bomb bay".
I will hold off calling it 'stealthly" until those canards go and they do something about the large vertical stabilisers.
This is a deliberate leak. The plane has been painted to look "dangerous" for the occasion. Would a real prototype be painted black? that too before it's "first flight"?
I would be very curious to see the first flight. If the plane is as "heavy"(most 5 gen's look bulky except T-50!) as it looks, then it gets interesting.
Chinese would need a powerful engine, which only Russians can provide. and that too of the similar dimension. If the dimensions change or engine weight increase, then they will end up in a cycle. Need a powerful engine to support a big bird and the powerful engine need more bigger bird to support it!
Prasun,
You are one of the few people that has consistently been right on chinese hardware, respect. J20 is reality and it seems to be more of a fighter-bomber. What can we expect from the J-14? There are rumours that you maybe be aware of, that pak are going to skip J-10 and go for J-14. How true is this scenario and how will it impact IAF? It seems no matter what IAF does PAF stays within range and that too by spending a fraction of what IAF does. Doesn't seem has this will change for the next 20-40 years now.
J-20 should serve as an eye opener to our government which is still in two minds about the AMCA…One after another China is taking big leaps and with every step they are leaving us decades behind…LCA is still more or less a test bed and AMCA is a mere conception as of now, which have not yet been properly put on the drawing boards let alone prototype or test flight.. And we are still not over with preparing feasibility reports for past two years..What use these reports will be to anyone other than serving as fodder to cockroaches in Government offices?? India desperately needs AMCA and FGFA in large numbers before the next decade dies off..We can not wait until 2025-30..This is a bloody race but and we must stop strolling as though its some morning walk…Peace and freedom belongs to those who are ready to fight for it..In todays world if we want peace, the only way is through strength…China knows it well…Its high time India learns it…
Is there any possibility that we may get AMCA before 2020??? Because it seems China will induce this bird by 2017-18 and roughly by that time even the Porkis will manage to get hand on it…Are our Netas sleeping or what?? They are still preparing reports and studies on our fifth gen jets while China has already tested theirs!!! God Please Help India…
my dhoti is shivering looking at the huge nosed plane
@ Shiv and P K Sengupta: Thanx 4 ur posts n cmmnts! I m a regular visitor of your blog and I really enjoy reading your posts(PS I do miss trishulgroup.blogspot.com).This is my first post as a visitor. After reading so many posts and articles about FGFA and J-XX I have come to the assessment, which I have tried to elaborate in next few lines. Please correct me, if I am wrong.
“STEALTH” is the commonest and most popular buzzword that is attached to the design of any modern warfare platforms (be it land, air, water or underwater)! Stealth design practices normally covers six different categories- minimization of radar cross section, infrared signature, visual, acoustic, smoke and contrail(not all of them are associated with every platform).
From my point of view (as much as I have learned from the pics or specifications publicly available) most of the modern western design (no need to mention also Chinese copies) reflects that designers are much more concerned about the minimization of RCS(be it aircraft, naval ship or mbt). But I believe this is not the trend that is being followed by RUSSIAN and INDIAN designers. For ex- latest Indian naval stealth ships like P-17 Shivalik class frigates, of course their hull features some RCS minimization feature, but top area is sill very cluttered to have any such feature, Russian designs are no exception, whereas western designs like from smaller and older French la Fayette to larger and newer US san Antonio class, it is quite clear in design aspect, the designers must have spent a large amount of time and money to reduce the RCS and more recently Chinese are also following this trend.
Fighter aircraft designs are no different. At the end of 2010, we can say that in next decade we will see the emergence and subsequent induction of (at least) 3 modern 5th gen fighters (F-35, PAK FA, J-XX). Among them PAK FA and J-XX are designed almost in the same period (PAK FA may be slightly older!). Chinese are always accused of illegally copying Russian designs. But if we believe the future Chinese fighter aircraft platform will be based on now emerging pics of j-20(?), then it is quite clear that Chinese design is much more influenced by of F-22 or F-35 rather than PAK FA. To me front section of the J-20 prototype is quite similar with F-22, it also incorporate features of F-35 like DSI inlet, which will further minimize the RCS. This is not the case for PAK FA, where designers are much concerned about the aircraft performance (maneuverability) rather than stealth. As a result bottom section of the aircraft and the air intakes lacks any such contemporary RCS reduction feature. The only noteworthy similarity I found in between J-20 and PAK FA is fully movable vertical tails (probably to make the aircraft more maneuverable). 4th gen fighters are no different. Like- from F/A-18E/F, Rafale to J-10, JF-17- none of them are true stealth fighter, but while updating their designs designers always have tried to minimize the RCS as much as possible through incorporating features of 5th gen fighters, (ex- DSI for JF-17, J-10B; from oval air intake to rectangular shape intake in F/A-18E/F) which is not the case for any of Su-30 family (including the latest Su-34, 35)!
Now my question is that is why is this basic difference in design philosophy between western design and Russian (or Indian)? Or is it simply because we and Russians are technically far behind in that particular area from western technicians! Also it will be great if you (for Shiv) elaborate any details about the DSI inlets- how much technically advanced or challenging it is. And finally how much important STEALTH is going to be in future combat.
All the pictures published abt J-20are unclear and look like photoshoped.
We know that china can do anything to make belive the world that they have high-tech weapons just to seed fear in enemies mind. Even recent reports reveal that china's capabilities are overestimated by many without getting into facts. No body has any solid evdience on their claims.
Lets not fear it. They will be as much crap as J-17 and J-10. Still its struggling with its so called indegious "copied" engines and fighter crafts. All renamed versions of Russian stuff.
Serious that looks like a volvo body on a autorikshaw engine.
I think we need to take it easy on comparisons between the new Chinese fighter and PAK-FA or F-35 etc. These are early days yet and both the Chinese and Russian aircraft will evolve considerably over the courses of their development over the next DECADE.
Hats off to the Chinese if these pics are genuine, but there's still a long way to go.
wat is that? its really huge!!! is it stealth bomber or fighter nose section similar to F-22 ..
@Sanu:
Yes. There is no extradition treaty with China or Pak. hence the extra territorial; jurisdiction under Information technology Act, 2008 will not come into play.
The J20 looks like a bomber than a fighter. This postion is confirm ed with the engines that have much lesser super cruise ability. This make them more vulnerable for Radar signature. All said and done its performance would be a matter of criteria. India should now think seriously about the PFA.
I doubt it will be better than the PAK FA, but it will pose a significant threat to us.
India should start concentrating on serious concrete acquisitions instead of lumbering with the LCA.
The difference between India and China is very apparent.
China delivers, then shouts.
We shout, but never deliver.
Any link on the Pakistani air force document leak?
Brothers,
Lets admit it,China doesnt Talk……it does while we talk as if we own the world.Talking has always beein indian forte since ages and doing it is chinese way either by hook or crook.Now before 2010 finishes they have got a prototype to fly.we are still to induct lca.MKI looks dated.My worry is 2015 we would be still talking about how fat and ugly chinese design looks and yo yo …these guys would be inducting it.and yes pakis will get thier hand on it 100% sure.it seems paki can still extract some meat from amricaans or else they move compleyely to chinese camp….correctly timed to maybe 2015…time of us withdrawals from afganistan……….let the party begin…..
The Naxalites have been successful at producing copies of AK's that are excellent in quality and design. Indian Ordinance Factory still has hiccups in producing world standard guns. Its time for India to privatize and introduce some fresh manpower to this urgent field.
To Heberian: Regretably, the past articles are not archived at either FORCE's or TEMPUR's websites. The photos of the JXX/J-20 were expected anytime this month as a senior PLAAF Maj Gen had alluded to the rollout in early November in an interview to CCTV. But the photos throw up a number of interesting questions:
1) At a time when even countries like Japan have to go to France to get aircraft RCS measurements, whom did China approach to get the JXX/J-20's RCS measurements right?
2) What turbofan will the JXX/J-20 prototypes use (the 117S?) when the WS-15 turbofan is still another two years away from being fielded?
3) What kind of mission avionics will the JXX/J-20 host? At Airshow China 2010 the cockpit mockup clearly showed a Grifo-F-type MMR. If that's the case, and if the Chinese are still clamouring for the IRBIS passive PESA-based MMR on the Su-35, then can one conclude that China is still years away from fielding an AESA-type MMR for the JXX/J-20?
4) The first JXX/J-20 shows no sign of hosting a nose-mounted IRST sensor. Does this mean that the aircraft will house DAS-type (on the F-35 JSF) sensors around its fuselage (also no external signs of such an installations found as yet) and if so, then which foreign entities have assisted China in this area? The Russians?
5) Given the fact that the MiG-35 is most definitely out of the IAF's on-going M-MRCA competition, could it be that some of the MiG-35-related avionics (like the DAS and Zhuk-AE AESA-based MMR) can now be sold off-the-shelf to China for fitment to the JXX/J-20?
To MPatel: The J-14 M-MRCA will be optimised for aircraft carrier-based operations and therefore the PAF is most unlikely to dump the J-10B in favour of the J-14.
Lastly, wishing all fellow bloggers and their loved ones a very prosperous and productive 2011.
To those who are "shaking in their doti's… or whatever" and all of those who have gone into a corner and started to sulk in the face of a capable adversary …what is wrong with you? You make it sound that we should bow down now to the evil empire. I think this is great news, well done china. Everyone is starting to realise the dragon's rise is anything but peaceful japan, us, Vietnam even my country australia (defence White paper) This only means our mod will work faster and I personally think the fgfa will creame this jx ding dong or whatever. Relax and start initiating a response
Indian defense R&D system is pathetically caught between certificate holders and bureaucrats who take years to develop any thing. Believe me our engineering skill and institutions are outdated.
We are only good in speaking better English, making finance presentation, writing software codes. We are really lacking engineers with good scientific knowledge and skill especially in the field of aviation, metallurgy, electronics etc. This has to start from grassroots level.
We need more money and people to accelerate R&D program (Especially defense). We need more involvement of private sectors.
@Saurya
Russians & Indians know the short comings of their radar technology and hence they would be found out anyway. So they spend much on the performance of aircraft so that there is a chance that they can escape.
The Chinese are DESPERATE for Big Power status
They HAVE the Money But NOT the technology
That is why they want the Europeans to LIFT the ARMS Embargo
Anybody can make a plane RESEMBLING F 35 .
The EXTERNAL shape is JUST LIKE F35
What MATTERS is what is INSIDE the Plane
WHOM do the Chinese want to IMPRESS anyway . Nobody is going to give a SHIT
Why dont the Chinese FIRST Improve JF 17 ,J 10 ,J 11, J 15
Thank you Prasun!
I wish you a prosperous and healthy New Year. Keep writing!!
Shiv – Thank you for an interesting 2010.
I wish you good health and much writing and flying next year!
My opinion is its just a PS/CG nothing else, chines fighter prototypes are @ green color not in black and look it its like a RAM coated one…it just a BS to give panic to their enemies nothing else..
1. No Engine (Even Russian PAK-FA engine is 3-4 years away, it needs bigger than that)
2. No AESA Radar (Using PESA & MMR, even Russia is developing a powerful radar to PAK-FA)
3. No Prototype in Black (chines fighter prototypes are @ green color not in black)
AVIONICS????????another BIG NO!!!!
@Timmy,
Yes let's remove barriers to Indian Pvt sector from competing in defense sector. Do you think they can take on Glock, H&K, Izhmash or they will cry for protection and reservation from foreign competition?
BigLulli,
We dont need americas help. Folks at the RATshaker forum have already come up with the report. The IAF just needs to ask them for it!
It seems our keyboard commandos are wetting their dhotis again.
Ask yourself has China ever produced anything on it's own? The answer is NO. They still fly reverse engineered vintage junks and call them as their own. Their most advanced jet J10 is touted to be Israeli Lavi and it certainly incorporates aspects of F16 passed on to them by the Pakis. Lavi is also a derivative of F16. F16, today is no longer a teenager or even young man.It's past it's prime and looking for a place to retire gracefully.
By copying and stealing can you be a quality engineer or scientist? These pics point at what they have come up with after stealing several terabyte of info from Yanks. Maybe the Russians did pass them some tech related to Berkut/Mig 1.44.
These pics also prove how incapable the Chinese are as far as R&D and design are concerned (head of F35 bottom of Berkut/Mig 1.44). Innovation has always been their Achilles heel. These leaks are probably China's way of telling the world that they are "1st world and developed"; which only speaks volumes about their immaturity.
Our dhoti lungi pyjama clad rustic quasi criminal netas must not take this as an opportunity to fool the people by justifying white elephant projects which are equivalent to a nuke bomb to India's development. Future battles will be fought for the mind which will need strong education, health, economic and social infrastructures to repel such attacks.
Prasun,
What is the need for them to approach anyone for any measurements? The Yanks and Ruskies have already done that. So taking half of Pakfa and another half of F35 and sticking them together will definitely make the new "baby" stealthy. Typical Chinese practical mentality. Why bother with time consuming expensive R&D when you can always steal?
Our AMCA is an original design, n not a mish mash of several foreign A/Cs. This is where India trumps China. Inspite of spending billions in R&D China is yet to show any spectacular breakthroughs in innovation whereas India is fast turning into global hub for R&D.
1st let China develop a quality jet engine and then we will worry about their "stealth fighter" which has several names J20, JXX, J14 etc. etc.
If they were really confident, they would have declared it openly to the world and not leaking info surreptitiously in bits and pieces. This approach only speaks about their doubts and lack of confidence.
@Prasun
Japan doesn't have much experience in the Aircraft design whereelse Chinese engineers have worked in reverse engineering for ages. Also some of them, have shifted from western countries to their homeland with knowhow.
The AMCA is an original design? Have you looked at its wing shape? It resembles the current model Chinese J-7 fighter's wing shape, which is at lest 2 generations behind the current generation of fighters.
@Anon 1.04 AM
You can learn A/C designing by reverse engineering?
Reverse engineering is building something by copying, no application of the mind. Whereas designing is building something completely new. Now tell me, how are the two same?
What stage are you at?
1) It's fake
2) It's a really good fake
3) It's a mock up
4) It's Russian
5) Or American
6) It's shit anyway
@Anon 12:17 AM
"Yes let's remove barriers to Indian Pvt sector from competing in defense sector. Do you think they can take on Glock, H&K, Izhmash or they will cry for protection and reservation from foreign competition?"
Or even worse, they will buy foreign equipment, pass it as their own and charge commission.
Anon 6.30
Nice joke. Your Chini Paki Chengdu is Chinese Mig 21 which they were manufacturing upto 2008!!!
This itself proves how reliable is their claims to design and manufacture 5th Gen fighters.
That is a large bird, too big to be a fighter. At supersonic speeds it has a ballistic, not lifting, body which would help subsonic range. With that much room for fuel and weapons this looks like an attack aircraft. I'd compare it to a stealth update to the old US A-5 Vigilante.
If China is working on a stealth fighter, this is not it. A different twin engine design like the T-50 is possible, or lower cost single engine like the J-10 (J-14?).
May be of some help:
{http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/j-xx.htm}
All the best
@anon 7:21 PM
Are you from the RATshaker forum? I think as a RATshaker your opinion means a lot. Maybe you should tell the IAF .. I mean if what you are saying is right then the IAF is stupid to conduct a study and waste time and resources. I appreciate as a RATshaker you know more than the IAF, so please help them out.
Here's a link to a very reputable source of current and future Chinese aircraft: http://cnair.top81.cn/J-10_J-11_FC-1.htm
In addition to the J-20, there is allegedly also a J-16 under development that is supposed to be a stealth aircraft based on the J-11/Su-27, making it somewhat similar to the PAK-FA that Russia is developing.
We need to support HAL and put pressure on gov to start funding immidiately. U know how our gov are like tejas which received funding only after 1993(project was in pipeline since 1983), delays were expected.
Gov got chance to go for foreign good and create scam. AMCA will be on-time only if funding start now.
And we need to fund it like US, Russia do.
Tejas is a good fighter but could have been even better. Tejas development cost 2.5bn, Rafeal development cost 36bn….
????????????????????????
CHENGDU AIRCRAFT CORPORATION – GOOGLE MAPS:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?t=h&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF8&ll=30.694141,103.946017&spn=0.005951,0.014452&z=17
The current J-XX photo that we say is just a experemental aircraft, It is a full metal body with avionics, engine radar of 4th gen aircraft. China is working on new avionics, radar, engine which will come only by 2015. They r still working on composite technology which is expected to be developed by 2014. Hence the actual J-20 technical demonstrator is expected to fly only by 2016. This experimental aircraft will however prove the concept of design and changes to be made on actual J-20. Still they have to make many design changes as well as structural change to replace metal parts by composite one. More over this will help china to start production of J-20 by 2019 instead of 2022.
AMCA first technical demonstrator is expected by 2017 with most of its avionics being tested on FGFA, Tejas. But will be oprational only till 2022. If HAl also make a experimental aircraft and test the design like china is doing then most of the designing checks and balance would be completed by the time actual AMCA fly. Hence HAL could bring AMCA by 2020, this will increase the cost of development a bit but still is a good option. But the question is when will gov start the funds, As all the previous project have suffered delays because funding did not start on time.
So proud of it! Whatever it looks like (F35 T50 or anything else), we do have something flying now or soon. And we'll never stop going on.
Regretably, Indian have nothing. The best idea for you is stop talking/arguing and do sth, so that maybe you can keep up with us after 15-20 years.
americans know about su47 after 120 flight may be j20 also complite some flight before or may be AMCA can too done some flight for chiness they know for cheep copy and unreliable technology . j 20 is a copy of f22
sir j 20 look lik f 35 from front and rest look like mig 1.44 its just look like mixture