FIRST ON LIVEFIST: After months of frenetic anticipation — and a whiff of conflict over the price of the weapons package — the Indian government today cleared a long-pending deal to upgrade 51 Indian Air Force Mirage 2000H/TH fighters. The deal with Dassault, Thales and MBDA HAL will be signed shortly. The deal, which has remained in its final stages for over a year without being cleared, will fit 51 IAF Mirages with new avionics, the Thales RDY-2 multimode radar and RF/IR MICA air-to-air missiles.
It is unclear what the total deal value is, with suggestions ranging from $2.1-billion to over $4-billion. It is also understood that the weapons component of the deal, worth $700-million, remains to be cleared by the government. Will update.
Any idea what the upadates are Shiv? there have been several reports but some of them conflicting. I checked the rakshak forum but too many things being discussed there.
shiv explain your view on this…
Surprised!!!! to know this. It means $46 million for each plane… old plane…. But if we check the cost of brand new SU-30MKI its less than $40 million per peace!!!!
What about engine???
Very good news ! Mirages will remain a strong asset in the future.
Good news but need to do more to face two front war.
So our mmrca winner will be Rafael
Should have given the deal to the israelis.
what is the differance between multimode and aesa radar…….why multimode and not an aesa radar…
seems Rafale is out…Just a wild guess!
Very good news. While cost might be on a high side the fact is that with these upgrades (new avionics, radar, MICA and many other upgrades) these planes will act as 4+ gen fighters capable of taking F-16s with ease.
Anyone got an idea how this will effect MMRCA deal? Will Rafale be given contract as MICA will be used extensively in that OR Typhoon will be given deal as MICA will form one arm so as to diversify?
It seems Rafale is out. This deal was to keep French happy. Govt. did the same with engines for Tejas. Something for everyone.
We should have gone for manufacturing of 250 M2k planes with TOT from dassault aviation. There will be no need for MMRCA. look at the accident record of M2k compared to the rest in IAF inventory and its performance during kargil!!!!wow!!!
Why should govt upgrade 51 Mirage for $4b when it wants to buy 128 MMRCA for $10b ? Instead they could have bought 51 MMCRA for the same $4b.
Upgrade includes new avionics, radars, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites, weapon delivery and precision-targeting systems.
@ Manish Verma ,
its not 40m $ each su30 mki, the recently purchased su 30 from russia (42 nos)is nearly 100m$ each with brahmos capable , even US F-35 has comes to 133m$(5th gen). but this upgrade is not costly – too much costly as compare to mig 29 upgrade and what Israel quoted for mirage is half the price even better than this .
But india inked due to avoid french supply of its avionics with mica to JF-17 of PAF, other hand its good to avoid sensitive tech to PAF.
moreover IAF is purchasing 450 mica AAM which considered to be very best in world with duel detection mode that too may be added in this single deal .
Quite expensive for an upgrade.
You could buy more MMRCA instead of just upgrading old airframes.
@ Manish Verma
my dear friend , su 30 mki costs 102 million , not under 40 million.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_aircraft-deals-with-friend-russia-costing-dear_1424437
If this order is costly, in that case EFT may get the MMRCA order and vice versa.
it's expensive because of the t.o.t. wanted by India.
this upgrade deal is way too costly.
But it has a hidden agenda that is to put a plug any future deal between France and Pakistan. Just consider it as a undertable deal to stop France from helping pakistan any further (like avionics and radar for JF-17,mirage 3 upgrade, exocent block 3,or may be even AIP for pak's next 6 qing class submarine)
Rotfl, HAL licenced built Su-30MKI costs over $100mln a piece, while an imported one something between $40-45mln. Congratulations to HAL. They know how to be economical effective.
BTW some of you should really try to learn that the newest French fighter is called Dassault (company name) Rafale (meaning 'squall' in French) and not Rafael.
That's not that hard if you try a little bit :)))))))))))))))))
Such high cost, i think even this deal is a scam. We could have gone for Israel upgrade package and used the extra money for purchase some more MMRCA or a couple more AEWAC for better surveillance.
@ Anonym 8:49
First you cannot export a su30MKI.
Its a custom made plane. For 40m$ you basically get an airframe with basic equipements. A pakistani modified F16 will break hell upon such a thing.
There is a reason behind the weapons upgrade market is such a hush hush. Simplistic conclusion often dont fit really well. That being said, you are right, no weapons deal in the world is without under the desk pay cheques
Good news. Means that all the millions of $ and millions of hours of manpower invested in training flight crew/ground crew to fly and maintain Mirage-2000s for the IAF will be fully utilised till 2030. People forget that these are fighters that with these -5 upgrades can take on even the F-16 Block 50+ of the PAF, and would hump the JF-17 any day of the week.
Plus, with squadron numbers dwindling, it only made sense to upgrade 3 squadrons of one of the IAF's premier fighter. And if the Rafale is chosen, MICA missile stocks can be shared between the fleets and maybe the MICA may well be assembled in India for a large order, with ToT.
@anon 8:49…
are u so dumb ..HAL build Su-30 cost is determined by the kits supplied by
the russians..
Excellent news for IAF ! Mirage 2000 is an exceptional aircraft and this upgrade will make it stand top of its class for 20 + years !
@Kartik Precisely buddy. With new avionics, radars, electronic warfare systems, missiles (and much much more) this is an extremely extensive upgrade capable of taking potential hostiles with ease.
I heard that MICA can lock on targets after being launched! Is it true?
@As simple as that 9:42 PM
Oh dear…
When India buys Su-30MKIs from RF, you import these planes. What do you mean by 'export'?
It's dead simple. An imported, manufactured by IRKUT Corp. Su-30MKI costs around $40-45mln. Single unit cost of HAL built Su-30MKI soars to a $100mln level. These are the facts.
So spare fairy tales about '$40mln airframe'.
Even after these upgrades the Mirages and Migs would still be a notch below the F-16 Block 52.
If France stops helping the Pak, does it mean that the offence procurement of Pak will be stopped. Does it not have alternate resources.
Stupid and overpriced.
Fourth Snap is a tornado of RAF, the FL Lt was promoted to squadron Leader in 2009 :).
http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/officerprom1jan09.cfm
The final price of the upgrade comes out to $79m/plane. This is exorbitant. Should have picked brand new Gripens instead, maybe even F-18s if they need a bomb truck.
I am sure this will pointed out bu CAG. We could have easily bought Gripen of Mig 29 at the given price.
scam scam scam in our failed nation
Name your price for buying your vote for a permanent seat at the U.N security council ? You guys just don't get it . $ 2.4 B sounds petty cash to me !
@Anon 12:50 The 40 Su-30 Mki with higher cost are specially designed for Nuclear Payload delivery and Deep Upgrades like AESA to act as 'mini air force'. I think its great we have two dedicated squadrons to drop Nukes on enemies.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Strategic-Command-to-acquire-40-nuclear-capable-fighters/Article1-599141.aspx
The government cleared the C-17 transport aircraft and got eliminated all the american contenders in MMRCA.
Looks like will never get its export customer. Just a guess..let's see things take a turn.
-Sudheendra S
51 or 52 ?
ditto for mig-29 upgrade.
Awesome news! People criticizing price dont understand that Fighter jets aren't Mobile phones that you can go, buy and use. These things have massive behind the scene costs involved with every deal so just comparing unit price is absurd. You will have to train several hundred personnel and spent a lot of time to integrate an fighter in force. Mirages proved their capability and high readiness rate and low maintenance costs in Kargil. With these upgrades it will become an very capable fighter indeed.
@anon 4:48 AM : $40m/plane, not $79. This is a usual price for such an upgrade on the international market (try to make some benchmark before writing silly comments). If you can get a brand new Gripen for this fixed and firm price valid till 2020, tell the IAF, they will be happy to know.
@Anon 11:35 There are plenty of Pakistani trolls frustrated by their collapsing country and being featured in list of most failed nation. They try to derail discussion by posting self-made stats without any base in reality. They go like 'Holy sh*t' when they hear about Billion dollar defense deals as they are begging US for resuming defense aid of 800 mil.
any TOT involved ?? anyone??
This is just another indication that the people in charge have no real understanding of rhe phrase "value for money". To spend so much on aircraft that have actually been retired by every major airforce is the height of madness. Unless those Mirage-2000's have stealth capability likes the F-35 this price is "robbery".
Instead of giving the Frogs so much Indian tax payer money maybe the can give HAL that money and get them to mechanise and automate the LCA production line ?
A fool and his money are soon parted they say, obviously the MoD fall squarely in this category.
I can already hear the CAG report coming 1 year from now crowing over the stupidity of this deal and the ensuing circus.
Dear
Shiv Aroor
Its good that we have finally decided to upgrade these gem of fighter jets. Just a few questions and will be pleased to get an answer
Q1 Are there any plans put these upgraded planes exclusively under the command of SFC which reportedly had asked for its own aircraft.
Q2 Are there any plans to buy out the Mirage 2000 that Qatar reportedly returned to France.
Q3 Reports say Greece is putting up its Mirage 2000 for sales (the newest and last from production lines), are there any plans by IAF to buy them through France or directly.
Q4 Sometime back reports were floating that UAE plans to exchange its Mirage fleet with France in return for Rafales, any updates on that.
Awaiting your responses
Thanks
Joydeep Ghosh
This contract does not represent anything, 25% for dassault for aicraft qualification and 75% is for Thales for upgrade old M2000 to high level -9,
The M2000-9 one shoot down at atlc UAE exercice the F22raptor in 12/2010, that prove the high guality and very expensive price.
India want the cancellation politic relation and military contract with Pakistan from France.
India must pay much for getting that.
This contract is a very small compensation concerning contracts lost for Pakistan.But France need much more to cancel politic relation with Pakistan, Cleary if India don't buy rafale, France will sell it to Pakistan, rafale is superior to eurofighter in any domain, now Dassault claim the air superiority on EF2000.
2009 Rafale won vs EF2000 1v1 8-1 dog (solenzara)
2010 Rafale won vs EF2000 7-1 4v4 4-0 & 2v4 3-1 UAE atlc
The rafale cost 84M$, the ef2000 124M$
That is clear.
anon 2:14 :To spend so much on aircraft that have actually been retired by every major airforce is the height of madness.
Ignorant idiot. Mirages 2000 are still an active force in numerous countries.
Our MRCA will be Typhoon! This deal is to appease the French. As we did with the Americans with the C-130 contracts….
India's Mirage upgrade: a prelude to a Rafale MMRCA win?
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/asian-skies/2011/07/indias-mirage-upgrade-a-prelud.html
Discussion about Typhoon and Rafale are nice and good on their own right but end result is we will get an absolutely powerful machine. Some prefer Rafale, some like Typhoon and in my huble opinion both are amazing. Both are way ahead of F-16,18,Su-35 and Gripen. Yes they cost more but right now the main problem is not price but Time and Quality. FA/18 is one hell of a fighter but 10 years from now Rafale and EF Typhoon will be far ahead of that.
Till 99s what we just had Mig29s to say our asses from Pakistani f16. Though better fighter than Paki teens(serviceability was a major issue then). Mirage 2000s though great A-G fighter was no match for the teens.
Number of teens were equal to our 29s how can our government be so careless to our security during those times. Even after these upgrades they would be just as good upgraded Paki Teens.
Though OT to this thread.
India should have upgraded Mirage 2000s to 2000-9 level from the present level 5. Should buy Both Euro fighter and Rafale.Buy the one which is cheap in more numbers & locally manufacture them.
At time of Kargil when IAF should have been bombing Kargil heights , they were fine tuning their LGBs,
crucial time was lost.
We are surrounded by barbarians. Bangladeshi whose asses we saved from their own Rapist army consider us their biggest enemy. China and Pakistan are two states which scares even the Americans.
I am still unclear about the utility or futility of this Mirage up-gradation order. However I console my heart thinking that it is certainly good for the present and may be futile for the future. The difference is that we live in present and who really knows the future.
The Mirage deal will secure Rafale's victory in the MMRCA race. Rafale combat powaaa for the IAF !!! : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3kV-qs3iN8
The last firing is a nuclear missile !
all are looking at the price tag, but is the deal covering all the years from now to 2018 or so (pls dont yell at me, i dont know), then one has to take into consideration the inflation factor (basically at Indian scenario value for money halves every 5-6 years)…then the actual cost will be around $30milion on average.
mmrca prices has to be also seen adjusted to inflation.
considering the worth of even the 'poorest' scams in our country 2 billion for defence, even if it is high, is justifiable!
If the defenders of our freedom and sovereignty think this is what they need to do the job then they shall have them. What the rest of us think and opine is of little importance.
@RK Well said dude. Some people go like 'Oh let them fly planes without latest avionics, radar and missile' and expect them to magically take enemy down. They shall be provided with cutting edge tech.
@RK if the defenders of our freedom want it they can pay for it themselves. We are a poor country where more than 400 million people are living in poverty. We can't be extravagant.
If we want to protect this country, we need to have the right to bear arms in its defense. All Indians should be given the right to keep arms. 1.2 billion armed people can defend this country better than any fighter can.
@Anon 4:25 You are DEFINITELY NOT Indian. People in India are allowed to carry arms as long as they have license. Even an kid knows that.
However, there is an country named China where people are not allowed to carry arms as the dictators of China are scared of increasing violence against state due to constant suppression of human rights and media.
@Anon 4:25 Are you drunk or something?
@Anon 5:15 Obviously you don't understand the concept of a "right to bear arms". When it is a right the government doesn't issue licenses! Even a child knows this, perhaps you need to go back to school and understand what "rights" are in a democracy.
As to China, that is immaterial to the discussion at hand. The Armed forces will ask for many things because they don't care about finances. The main strength of a nation is its economy and that is what the common people of this country depend upon for their livelihood. For the sake of giving the armed forces fancy toys we can't bankrupt this nation. If India goes bankrupt, nobody will bail us out, we are not part of the European union and we don't have some sugar daddy like Pakistan which gets alms from the Saudis and the Americans.
Think before you reply. It is better to have a strong economy than spoil the armed forces by acting like Santa clause. Let them buy LCA's, the Mirage 2000 upgrade is NOT required and prohibitively expensive.
@Anon 5:15 and 5:42 Are you on drugs or something — There is no such thing called Right to Bear Arms in India. Licenses for guns are only given to Goons and Politicians and connected people.
@Anon 8:06 I am an simple man I dont know anyone from politics or something like that and I own an licensed gun. There are shops of weapon which sell them and the person is checked simply to verify that guns dont fall into hands of criminals. I passed qualification with ease so stop whining. Finally, You seem more like an derailing troll. This thread is about Mirage upgrade but you keep ranting about guns.
Anon @ 9:15
You started this discussion how easy it is to get a gun license. Obviously you must be a Paki since it is next to impossible to get a gun license in India. Govt. of India uses an outdated British era arms control policy to pretty much make sure no common man gets a gun license.