I’d been very wary all weekend about posting about a very strong rumour that’s been doing the rounds specifically for the last five days or so, but now a mainsteam Indian business newspaper (Mint) has a piece today leading with precisely the opposite — word that the Eurofighter Typhoon has been identified by the Indian MoD as the lowest bidder (L1) in India’s monumental $20-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition. Obviously, there is no official confirmation of this, and there is unlikely to be any until a formal announcement is made either way. The competition has been marked by hearsay and rumours right through its life (sometimes, vendors have leapt in to correct them), and I’m only putting this post up since a mainstream newspaper has put it down in print (and that I’d heard the rumour as well). It’s delicate right now.
The brief report goes on to say that representatives of EADS Cassidian and Dassault are to be summoned to the MoD on Thursday (Jan 12). So is this it? We’ll know soon. Stay tuned.
Photo / Shiv Aroor (Laage AFB, Germany)
Shiv, at the risk of being reckless, do you think this essentially means the EF gets the nod? Awarding the contract to the contender which isn't L1 on the basis of strategic priorities and offsets isn't as easy as it sounds.
Great news Shiv 🙂
I'll welcome this, if it was true.. According to my concept, eurofighter has better rcs reduction, manuverblity, payload capacity, speed, range, thrust etc, comparing to that of rafale.. Things that questions me is the cost, AESA radar and TOT….
In past Fin min has shot down Airbus tanker…if MMRCA goes beyond the mandate…game might change again…leaving air force in lurch..and may be crying…USA..is d name..player they r
lowest bidder!! It's impossible!!!!
It's again a political decision!!!
Since the begining l don't understand why the ef has been shorlisted it isn't a multirole fighter
Some notes on this:
I heard there is a provision in the terms saying that despite of being a lowest bidder there is no guarantee the contract will be awarded. It further says that India has the right to select according to the Nation's strategic interest. So we have the choice entirely.
History says France act independent of US. EF countries proved again and again they oblige US in all matters.
The EF has loads of technology from US due to which full TOT is very doubtful.
We need A2G fighter so Rafale suits our needs better. We can rely on France too.
When we have SU 30 MKI why should we go for another similar fighter?
Was awarding French firm 2 days ago an order for 490 MICA missile an indicator that EF will be selected?
Is India trying to satisfy all super powers of the world by awarding each one each contract? If this is the UPA strategy its very pathetic. This is a lot of amount of money in Indian standards and this is about dealing with protecting the Mother Land
really ? r u defense expert who knows more thn Indian airforce officers?
Or just because it is good in AOA fights so u imagined it have no AOG capability.
Most importantly..what are the team that doesnt wins options..what will happen if they go to court..how will it delay things??care to speculate shiv??
If this is true and if GOI actually goes for it, then I think this will be regarded as a bad choice in the not too distant future. I am sure some of the folks reading this blog will not like what I have written, but I see only trouble, especially because there are too many "owner" nations involved in this deal, it's basically a hodge-podge-lodge. Good Luck to GOI, they will need it.
Looks like MINT has either taken down the page since the information is no longer there. So it remains a rumour after all
At the risk of reacting to a rumour-Why is it that Dassault sucks so badly at selling their wares?
So much so, that UAE went on a public abuse spree and now this with the IAF; which upgrades its Mirages at a higher cost than new Mirages cost.
Which brings us to a moot question Shiv. What are your thoughts behind the exorbitant price for the Mirage upgrade and the uber-exorbitant cost for the MICA's?
An earlier thought was that some component of this cost may have been MMRCA costs but if the Mint article rumors are headed in the right direction-What is the basis for the super high prices Dassault charged us?
A MICA missile costs $500K-600k in the international market when bought in the quantity India bought. Why did India pay $1200 K for the same missile? Why?
SHIV SIR ACORDING TO YOU WHICH IS BEST MMRCA MIG 35 ,RAFALE OR EUROFIGHTER………
SHIV WHICH AIRCRAFT IS BEST CHOICE FOR INDIA …..
Hope the finance ministry won't shoot this down. The 10 billion dollars initially estimated / allocated was some years ago; Inflation and also things have changed since then. Hope they keep all these things in mind and yet keep all options open.
Regards,
Sudheendra S
What about the offset price?
Will we go for licensed production. But it is heartening that IAF will atlast get a good fighter– a really capable one. Let's now move away from dud russian technologies and go for modular and well researched materials and technologies in aviation. I wish that Indian industries shall also incorporate some of the Typhoon technologies in LCA Tejas, MCA and even in SU 30.
Standardization of components and systems are required.
If this happens then Dassault surely going to close the production lines of Rafale. The way the french made the deal for mirage upgrade, it was obvious that the selection of rafale was minimised.
@shiv aroor
dont jump the gun now
i agree to some degree with @anonymous 2.35 am that the EF is not exactly Multirole.
By the way due you think its prodent to spend $20 bilion on 136 metal pieces and another $12 billion on 63 option, when are finding it real hard to squeeze out $30 billion for FGFA and $15 billion for AMCA.
I dont think FM Pranab Mukherjee will even take a look at the proposal.
regards
Joydeep Ghosh
Big contracts like MICA missile & mirage upgradation has been awarded to France…. Now, its time to make the other Europian Countries happy… It's truely a politicle decision.
The govt will shaft the IAF yet — no fighter aircraft eventually — just upgrade the MIG 21 BISONS … the b….. b…….! Goodbye India.
6 countires are currently using this fighter. Atleast one thing is guaranteed that there is a sure future for potential upgrades unlike Rafale that still is looking to gets its first international buyer. Any ways the Mirage upgrades which cost a bomb now seems to have been a leverage to nudge out the Rafale in this race. Hats off India… all contenders in the MRCA were eventual money spinners with some juicy orders for other products.
^^^ WHICH COUNTRIES ARE USING IT . THOSE WHO HAD ORDERS ARE CUTTING DOWN THEIR NUMBERS SO I THINK IS WASETFULL TO BUY FROM THEM. WHAT GURANTEE THAT OUR MONEY WON`T BE USE TO CUT THEIR LOSSES
IF THE UPGRADE COST OF MIRAGES IS HIGHER THAN THE ACTUAL COST THAN THINK ABOUT UPGRADING RAFALE IN THE FUTURE…………MAY BE A 50-60 MILL PKG FOR UPGRADATION…………….THE FRENCH ARE SURE SLOPPY BUISNESSMEN
very bad news.There wont be TOT since eft uses many u.s systems…….m sad
Most are missing the point that the technology that will come with the MMRCA[at least part of it] can be used for our local R&D to build future 6th generation fighters.
Now this may be a decade or two before realisation but we have to bite the bullet [to be read as taking the first steps to ensure Industrial-technological infrastructure is in place].
I too prefer Rafale but if Eurofighter out of desperation is ready to throw more into the ring then Eurofighter it is for me.
And so it should be for the country too in my opinion.
for hawks Bae has made HAL to eat dust by not supplying proper jigs in time. Same will repeat here with
British imperialism and German Nazism!!! we will suck for ever!!!!
bah ! if mmrca fail for rafale, next deal would be start with pakistan. mica and upgrade was repairing for the violation contract in the past from india.
Dassault is a businessman it go to next potential customer. In any case in fight rafale is superior on ef2000,ef2000 lost two time in bvr/dog exerice vs rafale, that is the most important thing.
How peeps can beleives sin doctors rumours?
so easily?
L1 rafale won the contest, IAF told us..
20 billion for only 126 fighters means 1.6 billion for eachfihter. India is actuaaly corrupt nation.
till now the report is not yet confirm . still then the l1 or the lowest bidder is not bound to win it all
i thought rafale would be the best but it lags a bit in thrust produced by its engiene
Which foreign
country wants to be
the first to buy the Rafale? Even though the French jet has demonstrated its multirole capability which is more proven than that of the Typhoon it has failed to secure a single overseas order. If Rafale loses the MRCA deal it will have a negative impact on other countries which are favoring it.Even in Europe nobody is interested in buying the Rafale other than the French themselves.Rafale is a contender along with the Typhoon in UAE, Malaysia and Qatar whereas it is upagainst other jets in Brazil and Kuwait.
Anon @ 3:14PM
People have said great things about TOT. We have had TOT for a long time, and guess what, we are still toiling to get the Tejas, the Arjun to be fully accepted and approved for our defenders. This is the evidence that suggests TOT is not a short cut in developing a new system, however TOT does help in setting up a manufacturing base, but that is not the case that is made to the people. I understand a need to import fighters, but I do not understand the need for ToT in the manner it's justified by our babus. As far as research goes, there are no easy options. Work hard and work smart, no TOT can help you there. You cannot import ideas, or solutions to each of the unique situations. You must work though the issues to find a solutions. If ToT and reverse engineering could help, China would have been on top of the world in research and development, but no…. they still need to steal technology to make something work. And yes, China is likely to have a much bigger R&D budget then GOI, and nor do they have the buracratic processes of GOI or US for that matter, but still they are not the leaders. What does that tell you?
Even if it is a rumour, it is not encouraging as Rafale appears to be the better choice, especially since MICA have been already decided on exorbitantly high prices.
However whatever is the decision, it has to be accepted and implemented timely.
Another scenario is that such steps may ultimately lead to the F-35.
fed up with this mmrca drama. Even the chinese and pakistani media has stopped publishing on this topic of 'father of all deals -Indian mmrca competition'.
i hope not ..we need a single vendor rather than UK-German who tom-tom Pak politically.
French Scorpene Subs/Vajra Craft/Missiles show that Rafale must be the winner. The deal to upgade Mirage is also quite good.
In fact rumors first suggested that Rafale is L1.
Only Rafale for me!!
Price of mica? Id say it involves ToT for Maitri (from MICA VL).
Mirage upgrade IS expensive, but look at the content : practically they need to disassemble the plane, change the whole electric system, reinforce engines/cells, input a new radar, a new EW warfare, communication systems etc. etc.
And to IGURU : roflmao : yes typhoon is faster and can go higher. Thrust to weight ratio are similar, Rafale was even quoted with better climb rate in switzerland. It is MORE maneouvrable then EFA, and has way longer range and bigger payloads. Please consult at least wikipedia or better specialized forum before posting such incongruities!
I wonder why some responses are in CAPS. Is that a mistake or they think their message can be understood well or are they angry on Blogger.
Reading comments with CAPS is not making comment section good read.
This is not to offend anyone.
6 Customers… GB and Italy are buying F35 and are desperately trying to reduce their EF order, Germany tries to sell theirs for peanuts! The two export customers (Austria and Saudi Arabia) have seen very very large bribery scandals, I hope India won't have e the same issue!
"a sure future for potential upgrades unlike Rafale"
AESA radar for Rafale are avaiable.
The one for Typhoon is yet a prototype…
It's just an example.
Can you imagine what France will charge us for upgrading Rafales in the future? We're paying $40m to upgrade one Mirage-2000. Monetarily, it makes sense to dump that money in getting new Gripens. But strategically, we have nothing to gain from Sweden, either militarily or politically.
Rafale has no market. So, in future when we need upgrade, Dassault will make sure to charge us enough to cover the cost of their R&D. Now I say it doesn't make sense to put ourselves in a hostage situation like this in the future with Rafale.
Dear Sirs :
Surely Indian-mmrca- Rafales could be launched from small aircraft carriers using twined-against-failure, under-fuselage, 'rato'_(rocket assisted takeoff) , such as those operated by India and Brazil, and other navies. Rafale_m's could land thereon, also.
Too, higher acceleration regimines for Rafales could be made possible by incorporating engine inlets like the 'channeled center-body designs' being experimented with at NASA-Dryden.
Why would someone pay so much to upgrade Mirage 2000 and to buy average type of MICA missile?
Is the technology transfer involved in it?
Why did not they go for other western missiles that are far superior?
Building and putting the 50 to 75 million dollar fighters out in the SUN to rot, corrode, fade, etc is a waste of money for a poor country like ours. Need to better protect our assets.
I think I see very poor negotiations and planning in all of these weapons buys and it will be more expensive to repair and upgrade without technology transfer.
I had told you earlier the reason the plane India requires is a advanced interceptor Typhoon is just that Mig 21 is an interceptor in the IAF inventory so it is simple it will have 1 primary role to get the grabage out of the sky.
Oh forgot to mention Rafale has potential you guies will know in next 2-5 years again i said it hear first
What's the use of buying such expensive aircraft's when advanced fighters like SU-30s have started crashing in the paddy fields!! First IAF blamed Mig's for their outdated technology but what happened in the case of SU-30's??Dont waste national treasure buying these ultra expensive machines & better improve your training & quality standards. No one cares about the hard earned money of tax payers…
Technically, Eurofighter Typhoon is superior to any other aircraft and it deserved to win. As there are no other country to share the development cost for Rafale, total cost will end up being shared between India and France. In case of Eurofighter Typhoon, surely the counties using it will upgrade it and India can share the upgrade costs, its a safe choice.
Noooo…. If IAF bought Rafale I was gonna take one home for myself too. Damn !! Really love that baby.
rafle & EF r differant type acrft when india want to nutrlize chines 7:1 ratio EFT is best but ground attack rafle good,india understand when not purshase rafle france provide a/c paki
@ anon 8:35 PM. I was referring to get the Industrial base going. That will be the bullet we need to bite.Kickstart the Mil complex. ToT was not even on my mind.
But just to debate I still agree only in part with your statement about ToT. It is only useless because of the way we use it. HDW/Bofors is a prime example, it was there for us to exploit and we did not because of our mentality.
So this does not mean we keep sulking everytime we are offered a chance. Here is one to buy something even China cannot have presently without stealing. Let us squeeze the most out of this one.
I thought as much that this massive MMRCA deal would ultimately be decided in Eurofighter Typhoon's favour, because it has an 'Italian- connection'. Plenty of 'moolah' involved you see.
Who knows how much money will go to politicians. Someone complained about high price of MICA missiles. I won't be surprised if more than half of it was "cost of sale" – to feather our politicians' nests.
Disgusting ruling class is what we have. No fighter can protect a country that is ruled by thoroughly corrupt pols!
Who knows how much money will go to politicians. Someone complained about high price of MICA missiles. I won't be surprised if more than half of it was "cost of sale" – to feather our politicians' nests.
Disgusting ruling class is what we have. No fighter can protect a country that is ruled by thoroughly corrupt pols!
There is an 'import lobby' working hard to scupper our own indigenous weapons/combat aircraft industry. Some Senior retired officers (both uniformed and bureaucrats) appear to be working as lobbyists/ Indian reps. of foreign arms/aircraft manufacturing firms.
Take for example, the turboprop basic trainer. HAL had proposed re-engining of the HPT-32 (DEEPAK) with the Allison turboprop engine and had even modified one as 'HTT-34', but the IAF has insisted on importing 75 turboprop trainers like the TUCANO/PILATUS/KOREAN TP TRAINER. HAL had displayed a 'mock up' of a Turboprop trainer (HTT-34) at the AERO INDIA show way back in 1995. IAF didn't evince any interest then.
The AJT and ALH are instances where the IAF/Army insisted on imported substitutes.
HAL has developed the IJT (HJT-36-SITARA) but the IAF is not evincing any interest in inducting the same into service. Similarly NAL/HAL could have developed/produced an AJT as well, had they been tasked to do so. Haven't they developed/produced the more sophisticated LCA-TEJAS? So many years have been lost in procrastination by the bureaucrats in DM, only to decide later on to import the HAWK AJT.
After developing the ALH at great cost, the IAF/ARMY/NAVY are not too interested in acquiring these in more numbers, but are pitching for lighter choppers (LUH) to be imported. They could have projected their requirement for an LUH/indigenous substitute much earlier.
Now the IAF wants 126 MMRCAs to be imported
at a huge cost, not being too interested in the light-weight LCAs. Why didn't the IAF anticipate its requirements for MMRCAs and project it well in time, since the lead time for product development/'import' under licence manufacture is atleast ten-fifteen years?
Since the Defence Ministry is readily agreeing to their demands for imports these days, the services are pitching for imports, instead of the indigenously available alternatives.
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Indian Goverment should allow investment/partnerhip in defense sectors. we have a big stumbling block DRDO. no doubt DRDO has done a lot of success stories like our INDIAN MISSLE program. but they suck at a lot of things like ARJUN tank (it is one of the best tanks) but came up 5-10 yrs late than predicted / promised. same goes to LCA worst ever show, when countries are ready with 5+ generation fighters we end up creating a 4th generation fighter that too under developed. if only GOI had the will to bend DRDO's arm to accept foreign partnership for this one like thay did for kaveri engine, LCA would have been better designed and powerful than MIRAGE 2000's. GOI does not know the meaning of INDIGENOUS " IF YOU CANT MAKE IT BUY IT :p ".
even now india can make a face saving in LCA by adding a partner to make the design/development better. atleast they should do it for MCA. regarding MMRCA competion india should buy both RAFALE and EF as both are versatile and have good technology which will add up to our knowledge.
story of the day "if you pay more for something try to use it well ".
So finally what happened to the deal? Who won it? This will keep on dragging till this year end till china comes a calling at your doorsteps. Antony and MOD are the worst non performing assets. They take years to clinch a deal. Shows how India moves forward or is it backward.
that Anonymous up there at 1:12 PM said he'll take home a Rafale if IAF buys it…so if that happens IAF would have to settle for just 125 MMRCAs? No! we want 126!