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| US Navy Photo by Petty Officer 2nd Class Jonathan Snyder |
Apparently putting to rest questions over technology transfer negotiations being one of the bumps slowing progress in the big jet deal, the Indian government today told Parliament that Dassault’s technology transfer offer was ‘compliant to the requirements specified in the RFP‘. Here’s Defence Minister Arun Jaitley’s full statement:
The process of negotiations with the L-1 vendor, M/s Dassault Aviation of France for procurement of Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) is on. The Request for Proposal (RFP) for procurement of MMRCA included a full section on Transfer of Technology (ToT) requirements. The offer of M/s Dassault Aviation for ToT is compliant to the requirements specified in the RFP.
If Rafael jet deal end Iaf only 27 fighter squadron in 2022. Lca is ^ … Time and money vaste. After 30 years iaf only 40 lca mk1 trainer in 2020 and another 20 years to develop lca mk2. DRDO, ADA and hal HAL are all (———).
In my previous comment on Shiv Aroor ji's blog I suggested why don't GOI of ask France to manuufacture half of planes in their country and rest in HAL, India. Parallelism in manufacturing will ensure India will get this order completed early. India should also ask their scientist to work on 5th Gen AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft) along with LCA MK2.
Rafale buy is going to be a disaster. It ll be the reason for defeat and not victory in the war. A country that does not have capability to make its own fighters jets is unlikely to win a war against China. Along with all the arm twisting by France which would come as a package.to
India continues to fund and run the global arms corporation because of jaichands of the arms lobby. More money should be provided to fund the local R&D and local build of arms. This is not a good news bu a very bad news.
Sir, india already spent four Billion Investment in LCA, LCA2 and NLCA but result is nothing. India Spend six billion co- develop FGFA but russian share only 15% technology and AMCA take more than other 20 years. So Rafael is only hope for iaf. You and your type people nothing know about DRDO, ADA and HAL. They are only assemble fighter jet, not develop fully fighter jet. So plz stop baring.
You said that Rafael is disaster. China has no advance fourth gen aircraft like Rafael. All j10, j11, jf17, su27 and su 30 mkk are no match for Rafael fighter jet. Plz get some knowledge and then back on your comment.
What is meant by —-
"TOT is compliant with the requirements specified in RFP"
Does India get TOT for Basic Rafale or F-3R version Rafale?
Does it get 10% design, manufacturing,, and mantenance technology?
Is India allowed to manufacture and improve it after the build of 126 plane contract without any payments to France?
Does TOT include engine, AESA, avionics, etc?
I think if it does not include all of those, then it is really a waste of $20 to 30 billions to assemble from boxes…India should rather buy and live with…
That is a large sum and it will destabilize whole MOD budget for next decade or so…
If Scorpene is of any indication, then India should be careful and put in penalties if France backs out for any reason…
yes yes the negotiations are complete, all the papers are in order, everything is set BUT where is the MONEY??
The IAF is in for a rude awakening. They have been behaving childishly believing they can get what they want if they scream loud enough. Its time to see the writing on the wall "THERE IS NO MONEY".
Sukhoi 30 is grounded
This is not related to the Rafales. I stay in pune near the Lohegaon AFB. I am a plane enthusiast. Our day starts with the roar of sukhois and have been watching these planes for years. For over a month or so there have not been any sukhoi 30mki flights…I thought it was the rainy weather but have spotted other planes and fighters (Jaguars )doing sorties, yesterday I learnt that Sukhois are having problem with their engines and are grounded:
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140721/main2.htm
Will we get the new f3r standard? I think we will get the f3s standard. Also does the TOT includes AESA radar and engine?
Seems like LCA will not induct this year
It will take more time may next year . It takes 14 years to test even mother engine was faulty then moves to GE 404
Just for info we would gét crutial design tech, the aesa radar and radome tech would be transfered, we might also get engine know how, French do transfer tech, infact we should be arm twistng Dassault, if no Indian deal it is curtains Rafale. I feel we must take 100 mk1 plus Rafale and develop a single engine 5th gen tejas before mk2
We would still have 800 fighters
272 sukhoi
228 rafale / tejas
110 mig29 / mirage 2000
200 jaguars / mig 27
Jags and mig27 to be replaced fgfa
So the need of a light weight fgfa would be mote prudent.
One thing russians give us eqquipment and chinese the tech,
So its better if we get as much out of Dassault.
NSR says…
$20 billions – $157 million/plane
$30 billions – $238 millions/plane
why would India should spend that much money and destabilize whole budget…brand new F-16 sells for $50 millions and F-18 sells for $60 millions and both come fully equipped…
Unless Dassault establishes a full fledged manufacturing facilities and transfers 100% TOT and MOT, then it is not worth it…
France is in recession and Dassault is in trouble and no one ever bought it…so bargain hard for full transfer of technology and may be joint production under new defense procurement policy…
Any one who believes that Rafale can beat SU-30MKI, does not know about the capabilities of SU-30MKI…
We do not have an engine at all of our own…May be if you buy F-18, then at least you get engine technology needed for LCA, AMCA, etc
Spending $20 to 30 billions and not getting TOT and MOT is really very foolish decision
NSR says to Anonymous at 10:10 AM….
The minimum cost of contract they are talking is $18 to 20 billions…
$20 billions – $159 million /plane
$30 billions – $238 million /plane
Where do you get that kind of money? I do not think it grows on a tree or falls from sky…does it…
It is just not worth it at that cost…
Need to do something different way…
On the other hand USA military pays $60 millions for each fully equipped F/A-18…
Lockheed Martin and its allies trying to push down the cost of F-35 to $80 million dollars per plane…
Now can you say that Rafale will be any better than them..
Only pain and suffering for the MOD and services will follow…
SU-30MKI engine problems—Exactly, two years ago, Russians lost their Mig-35 bid in MMRCA…Does any one see link…
If India does not get engine technology for SU-30MKI and Mig-29, then they will be falling like dead ducks from the sky…so get back to Russians and make sure to pay to get the complete technology…
I am not a fan of HAL, DRDO,or even IAF…they all bungled up…
NSR likes theses comments from Admiral Prakash —
“I don’t know how much clarity there is in our air force. Take the MMRCA. If we go by the air force’s choice of the Rafale, which is 85 million dollars apiece, then buying 126 copies of that aircraft is going to cost 120 lakh crores (INR). Which is almost half the budget. Was that a wise decision? At the same time we’re also continuously criticizing our indigenous industry – for good reason. But the big question is for how long are we going to afford buying from abroad?” – Admiral (retd.) Arun Prakash
“I think we have to come down to ground and temper our vision and our doctrine etc, with the fact that anything that we imagine is going to become unaffordable and we have no choice – absolutely no choice but to build it in India.” – Admiral (retd.) Arun Prakash
I have written several dozen comments all over the newspapers…about excessive cost and lack of TOT, and dependence on foreign products…
I think what Admiral Prakash says mirrors my comments…
He also has other comments that makes good sense…
IAF wants to import everything and the panel suggests that IAF take hold of the programs to run them through so some of them may become successful…
Admiral is right on the money…
India already spened 10 billion to develop lca, Arjun tank, akash missiels, Trishul missiels, tank ex, AWACS. Nal saras etc. But result is on your table. So why your crying about money. DRDO, ADA and HAL only money waste. Even cruoption 2g 1.75 lack cr. cw games 70 thu cr and many more why you are not talking about that? I
@Anon 8:31 PM
Wakeup man…all those figures you gave look good on papers. You know how hard it is to maintain Sukhoi 30s, because you want to have israel and european sensors on russian plane it is logistics and maintenance hell. There is a teethering problem with Su30 engines and all the planes are grounded at present. mig-27s don't fly that frequently after engine problems. India is again left with mig29, jag and m2000 alone.
NSR says —
Now see everything comes to one big item …ENGINE…Don't buy any fighter plane without 100% engine TOT and MOT agreement…
272 Sukhois and 110+ Mig-29s will fall from sky like the Mig-21, 23, 27, etc and the only thing keeping them afloat is twin engine configurations…
With engine technology, one can remove and put in the new engine in few days and be ready for sortie…and send the malfunctioning one to shop to fix it…
Crashes would cost India precious lives of very well trained pilots…not to mention the plane…
Government, IAF, HAL, and DRDO should start thinking differently to survive…
To Bunny Singh:
Rafale will not be disaster ad not be reason for defeat in war. Capability to make own fighter jets is highly desirable for any country living in tough neighbourhood and aspiring to strategic autonomy, but India hasn’t got it yet. But it did won 3 wars & Kargil conflict with foreign equipment (including French Toofani and Mystere in 1965 and 1971, Mirage 2000 key role in Kargil: no disaster, no defeat).
Lacking indigenisation is today India's number 2 problem. Will be solved over decades, not years. In the meantiume, can be mitigated by dual source
acquisition.
Indian No. 1 problem is over-dependence on Russian equipment. The same is famous for decent performance but very poor quality and reliability (Sukhoi 30 is grounded according to Anonymous at 3:01 PM), which makes high cost of owning. Russia, India’s “best friend” isn’t to be trusted: it keeps blackmailing its oil & gas customers from eastern Europe whenever they misbehave, now beating up Ukraine for no good reason. Government of India isn’t aware of Russian armtwisting because they never antagonises Moscow. If Manmohan Singh had disagreed with Putin to interfeeing in internal affairs, hold illegal referendum and unilaterally annexing part of sovereign Ukraine (all things we’d hate from Pakistan neighbours!), I believe Russian support to India would be put on hold. When India buys second hand aircraft carrier 2 and half times the price, it is because of Russian armtwisting. And Russia keeps arming and giving Russian tech to China, and through China to its best ally Pakistan.
France is too small to twist arms of India (Sweden is same), and they've always been good friends (no arms embargo after 1998 nuclear test, kept providing support to Mirage during Kargil). US would certainly use leverage if sold weapons to India. MMRCA deal with Rafale will bring lot of best technology and lot of money to HAL and Indian private sector. This is very good news for Indian Air industry and Air Force, very bad news only for Sukhoi, Mig, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter and Saab.
To anonymous@7:35 PM
Changing engine on Russian jets is taking up to 1 working week. For Mirage 2000 less than one day, few hours on Rafale. Not because super tech or rocket science, just clever design with life cycle cost in mind. This makes these jets much cheaper to own despite more expensive sticker price when buying respect to legacy Russian and US planes (Eurofighter F35 and FGFA will have much biggerer sticker prices, don’t believe contrary propaganda Soviet-style from JSF and FGFA managers).
Anonymous at 8:34 PM
Why would India should spend that much money and destabilize whole budget…
1. Because F-18 and F-16 is not brand new, its brand old design. And much more expensive to maintain. Lockheed Martin and allies trying to push down the cost of F-35 to $80 are trying to buy time by selling fairy tales: F-35 was born an ugly & expensive baby, no amount of pampering will make it pretty cheap.
2. Because Rafale beats F-16 and F-18 in every mock encounter (plenty HUD video on YouTube). It can even beats F-22 supposed invincible (check YouTube again). F-35 will be a dog in manoeuvring and not so stealthy, piece of cake for Rafale. F-35 is struggling with system integration and sensor fusion, where Rafale succeeded beautifully several years ago.
Russian engine Tech? This would be wasted money. The wise man says: "I can't afford to buy cheap", because cheap always ends up more expensive. Go for Rafale at the right price, and make sure next generation is indigenous (neither French, nor Russian, nor nor…).
To anon at 8:47 PM
Anyone who doesn’t know that Rafale can beat SU-30MKI does not know about the capabilities of Rafale. Those of Su-30 MKI are much overblown. The plane is just too big and heavy, despite fine flight controls and hot engine (maybe too hot), and Rafale system is just too good (sensor fusion and datalink), despite Su-30 has a neat system.
@ Kumar,
NSR says….
Do you have any idea what version of Rafale (Basic or F-3R) France is selling us for this contract?
Are they really transferring 100% design, codes, and manufacturing, and maintenance technology for engine, AESA radar, etc?
They sold us Mirage – 2000 and taking $45 million per plance just to upgrade the 30 year old plane and it does not even come with a new engine so they shall start falling on to earth like Mig-21's…
Taiwan, UAE, etc just junking their Mirage-2000 because of the high cost of upgrades…Alas we can't afford not to upgrade…
So it will happen same way with Rafale too…
Please compute per plane cost and tech India is getting before you do any comments…Also look at the India MOD budget…
They need too many important things like, submarines, helicopters, guns, anti-tank missiles, air/missile defenses, etc
So I think Rafale is unaffordable …
Somehow, we need to get F-414 technology completely if we really want to build Tejas II…
Finally I think India's air dominance is not a concern at this time to spend that much money…
IAF has been pushing for exports for so long…
NSR says —
Respected Shiv Aroor must have known some facts from pilots during Indo-French exercises on performance of SU-30MKI, Mig-29, Mig-27, etc against Rafale…
So we are eagerly awaiting for his comments on the Rafale performance and acquisition benefits/liabilities, etc
As far as I think it is too big of a bite for India to buy this system in the present contract form…may be Dassault should form a 50-50 joint venture with HAL and manufacture it cheaply and let India use its technology in other projects like, LCA, AMCA, etc
Too many accountants in this discussion . Tejas lovers ( like me ) should realise that our LCA is simply not there – we are unable to organise a supply line and the Airforce is correct in not placing its faith in hot air being generated by the HAL/MOD/ DRDO combine .
We need urgent gaap filling right now . US is not an option anyway so 10 squads of Gripen and/ or Mig 29 M2 is the best solution . No TOT/set offs , just get the bloody planes here to replace the Mig 21's on a one to one basis . MRCA sham can continue and if God is kind we might get that also
Anon @4:43
NSR says—
Agree with your suggestion and I wrote about ordering more of Mig-29K and SU-30MKI with latest AESA radar…but bargain very hard for complete engine technology transfer and AESA radar tech with some payments as they may not continue to supply spares properly…
Since these planes accept other armaments, go out and buy best possible BVRAAMs and precision bombs, etc
Dear Folks ,
One thing is quite funny . No service chief ( all three services ) has taken the Govt. on and tried to force an acquisition . The world knows that we need fighters , cannons and submarines but the bara sahib's are content not to stick their necks out or take the shortages to the public. Do we think that MMS would have said no if the air chief had gone and said I want this plane now , damn the cost, damn the politics or you fold the flag and donate Kashmir , aksai chin to Pak and chinks. Wierd.
Is making a deal of Dassault Rafale by the IAF be going to be of any use in coming days , beacause most of the nations that are posing a threat on India are making even advanced fighter air-crafts ( like J-20 by CHINA).As the time is passing by, the deal is getting even costlier (and meaningless)? Although these air-crafts are going to complement the proposed FGFA and AMCA air-crafts, still spending that amount of money on such a plan that cannot prove to be decisive in a war in out of clue to understand.And at this time when India needs these fighter planes (right now), the deal is still under consideration and all the responsibility of defending Indian skies lies directly on Su-30 MKI (& also on old MIG-29 flanker).
http://www.techinvicto.com/ (visit link for more interesting stuff).