6thPC: Update on Lt Gen and HAG+

Excellent wk by our chiefs and Shiv. Keep it up.

shiv
why are you giving news bit by bit of the same meeting. If you have the info why not put it all on at the same time in one post so that some meaningful debate can take place and the magnitude of the scam can come to light in one go

what is the up date you have given the same story in FOUR PARTS,nothing new. please post some thing new.

Quite right. The IPS's claims are that police forces have grown since 1950. So has the army. It has also grown surprisingly more complex. So an upgradation is necessary.

The other claim is that the number of men commanded by the policemen has grown. True. But that is no basis for grant of superior rank.

IF that were so, the Foreign Secretary should be the Foreign Joint Secretary. And Embassies should be run not by ambassadors but by officers in the Senior Time Scale. R&AW should be headed by an NFSG officer. And the IAS should be headed by an Additional Secretary. That line of reasoning is, as we can see, insensible.

BTW, nice pic. A garhwali officer, I see.

Indeed. These demands are simply for correction of the most hideous of anomalies. There shouldnt even have been a moments doubt about them.

The real questions are:

1. Why is a brigadier with 30 years service not equated with an Addl Secy?

2. Why is the National Security apparat not under a Chief of Defence Staff, who is placed higher than the Cab Sec (as the chiefs used to be, prior to 1974)?

3. Why are all the MES, BRO, IDSE, IDES, IDAS, IOFS allowed ranks up to Secy? They should go no further than director, and be placed under military command.

3. Why is it that a civil servant passes his JTS scale while still in training?

4. Why are Major Generals not in HAG+, because they used to be equivalent to the Apex police officer until not even 30 years ago?

5. Why is a colonel with 20 years service not at least a Joint Secy?

6. Why is a Lt. Col. not equiv to director?

7. Why is a major not JAG?

8. Why is a captain not STS?

9. Why isnt there a CDS reporting to the PM directly? Is defence so unimportant that the PM can afford to be told about it through bureaucratic channels?

@annony at 1100

aapke sare point valid hain
par aap shayad nahin jante ki Haq bheekh mein nahin milte uske liye fight karni parti hai
picchle 60 saal se fauz bheekh hi to maang rahi hai

Dear Sir,
1)What is the latest on these issues?
2)Why can’t it be impressed to remove this learned lady from the loop?
3)If is the genesis of all problems , she is not competent to handle this important issue.
Our aim is to come to some logical conclusion
thanks

dear shiv,
why have u blacked out on HT? I thought the pay anamoly issue was to be covered till its logical conclusion.

If Special Directors have not been approved, then why has BSF created two new posts of “Special Director General”?

why the chiefs were discussing the issues with sushmanath?

hey, u keep saying watch HT for update. but there is nothing on pay issue. no news, no caption even no mention in scroll line. when r u putting this story on air.

Its high time the cabinet decides who, if at all, will bear arms for the country.
If they continue to pussyfoot, I say, lets give it to them good.
The country will thank us for it.
That, at least will take us out from this despondency.

God, I am fed up.

To all our veterans:

THE FINAL INSPECTION

The soldier stood and faced God,
Which must always come to pass.
He hoped his shoes were shining,
Just as brightly as his brass.

‘Step forward now, you soldier,
How shall I deal with you ?
Have you always turned the other cheek ?
To My Church have you been true?’

The soldier squared his shoulders and said,
‘No, Lord, I guess I ain’t.
Because those of us who carry guns,
Can’t always be a saint.

I’ve had to work most Sundays,
And at times my talk was tough.
And sometimes I’ve been violent,
Because the world is awfully rough.

But, I never took a penny,
That wasn’t mine to keep…
Though I worked a lot of overtime,
When the bills got just too steep.

And I never passed a cry for help,
Though at times I shook with fear..
And sometimes, God, forgive me,
I’ve wept unmanly tears.

I know I don’t deserve a place,
Among the people here.
They never wanted me around,
Except to calm their fears.

If you’ve a place for me here, Lord,
It needn’t be so grand.
I never expected or had too much,
But if you don’t, I’ll understand.

There was a silence all around the throne,
Where the saints had often trod.
As the soldier waited quietly,
For the judgment of his God.

‘Step forward now, you soldier,
You’ve borne your burdens well.
Walk peacefully on Heaven’s streets,
You’ve done your time in Hell.’

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/MMOnline.dll/portal/ep/contentView.do?contentId=4768868&programId=1073754912&pageTypeId=1073754893&contentType=EDITORIAL&BV_ID=@@@

'Drunk' BSF jawan kills three Bangladeshis

Dhaka/New Delhi: An apparently drunk BSF jawan strayed into Bangladeshi territory and shot dead three persons, including an infant, before being detained by BDR personnel, officials said Monday.

The jawan, R.P. Singh, after crossing the international border, entered Maingudi village in Panchagargh district Sunday night and opened fire after a scuffle with locals, BSF Deputy Inspector General K. Srinivasan said in New Delhi.

Three persons – Ghulam Mustafa (50), Hajira Begum (25) and Mamun (seven months) were killed on the spot while another person was injured, he said.

BDR's operations director Colonel Anisur Rahman said in Dhaka that the villagers captured the "drunk soldier" after incapacitating him by throwing a sharp weapon and later handed him over the to BDR authorities.

The soldier has been admitted to Rangpur Medical College Hospital with head injuries, the BDR said.

"A flag meeting was held today where the BSF apologised for the unfortunate incident and assured that suitable action will be taken against the jawan after proper inquiry," Srinivasan said.

After the flag meeting, BSF DIG R. Chandra Mohan and BDR's Colonel Aftabul Islam jointly visited the victim's homes.

The BDR has offered to hand over the jawan to the BSF. Two BSF doctors were also sent to examine the injured jawan who reported that he was fit to be brought back to India.

Singh is likely to be handed over soon. BDR has returned the service weapon of the jawan.

Meanwhile, the Bangladesh Foreign Ministry has "strongly condemned" the incident and said "relevant authorities will carry out an inquiry into it".

One person you all talk about most is Shushma Nath.

And you say her husband is from IPS and is in BSF.

You are ignorant fools…

Her husband is in IAS.

@ANNONY 3.32 PM

you are right on your thoughts but keep it to yourself only till the time you become chief. so that you can implement those thoughts.

DEAR ANON : 6.52;
THE LAST PARA OF GODS JUDGEMENT IS A HOAX. I SHALL TELL U WHAT GOD WILL SAY;"UR LIFE WAS ALWAYS URS WHAT U DECIDE TO DO WITH IT IS UR PROBLEM, U COULD HAVE MADE IT COMFORTABLE FOR URSELF LIKE OTHERS. NOW STOP WASTING MY TIME ;I WILL GIVE ONE MORE LIFE DO WITH IT,WHATEVER U CAN.

U & UR LIFE WAS ALWAYS IN UR HANDS ,

Dear Anony @ 2:40 PM. YOU are so smart and worldly wise how I wish I could be like you. We have been really foolish all these years willingly and foolishly risking our lives for people like you. I think you are very correct. It is our life and our first duty is to protect it . The nation can go where ever it likes. I came close to death so many times and today I really feel that it would have been really sad had I died for a nation which has people who care two hoots for soldiers. I only feel utterly sad for those who embrace death infront of us and died for such ugly and selfish Indians. You dont have to worry about the soldiers now . I think hereafter they will look after their comforts.

How can the issue be speeded up and resolved for the good of the country?
Any new timeline has been set by PM,FM,EAM,RM?
Could U plse ask them and post a deadline so that people have a day to look forward to.

Pay Commission

by: Lt. Gen. RP Agarwal (Retd), PVSM, VSM

11/17/2008

‘Googling’ for “sixth pay commission” throws up 4,76,000 pages worth of results – an indication of the unprecedented interest and deliberations it has engendered. The media boom and social networking over the internet have ensured that each nuance of the report has been dissected and examined for ramifications. Anomalies that would have hitherto gone unnoticed till much after the implementation were picked up and circulated via mail groups, discussion forums and blogs. The recommendations concerning the Armed Forces have been particularly contentious and to make matters worse, the Committee appointed to resolve the anomalies has, on the contrary, introduced more of the same. While the Group of Ministers constituted for amelioration is expected to address these, it would also be prudent to take this opportunity to examine certain core issues which are the basis of divergence between the military and civilian points of view regarding the status, pay and perks.

Concerns have been voiced about the fact that the forces have been consistently downgraded in status vis a vis civilian counterparts ever since independence. There is no disputing this as the C-in-C of the Army prior to independence was second in the warrant of precedence, after the Viceroy. In fact, his official residence was the Teen Murti Bhawan, which became the Prime Minister’s residence after independence. As on date, the COAS is 12th in the warrant, and the slip is not merely 10 places, considering that most of the 11 slots above him are occupied by scores of people. Correspondingly, the warrant has been adjusted downwards at all levels.

The reason for this slide is not very difficult to perceive. The distinction between the soldier and civil administrator was not so marked prior to independence. The role of the Army, and consequently the position occupied by it, under colonial rule, was vastly different from that in a democracy. Notwithstanding the fact that the Indian Civil Service provided the steel frame of administration as a precursor to the IAS, a large number of civil appointments at district level upwards were held by military officers, or erstwhile military officers. These roles were switched back and forth, and the protocol or inter se status was therefore clearly defined. The fact that badges of rank of police are same as that of the Army is a legacy of this system. Post independence, however, the Army’s role is rightfully restricted to defence of the nation, and the ever widening chasm between it and the civil counterparts has resulted in an erosion of the warrant of precedence.

The issue of career progression vis a vis the civilian counterparts is another cause of frustration within the services. The peculiar nature of service necessitates a pyramidical hierarchy within the forces. For instance, for every general officer added, a suitable organisation / portfolio for him to handle needs to be created within the forces. Considering that the size of the forces is more or less static, this is difficult to implement. In the case of civil services, however, the size of the cadre is not relative to any particular organisation. Apart from promoting officers in situ while they continue to perform the same duties, adequate scope for lateral movement to PSUs, corporations and other organisations is open to them. To that end, comparing the promotional avenues in the forces with other services such as the IAS, IPS or similar cadres amounts to an attempt at comparing two dissimilar things on a common platform. Unless, of course, we have Colonels commanding companies, Brigadiers battalions, and so on. Some may argue that there is nothing wrong in this, and even cite the example of say the police, where every state today has 10 – 12 DGPs, some looking after ridiculously mundane things such as stationery (maybe an exaggeration, but just about). This approach has inherent flaws that would supersede the marginal improvement to the pyramid that it would provide. It still would not be adequate to meet the aspirations of all the regular officers who join the service. We cannot hope to match the assured career progression of the IAS or the IPS wherein the rank of a JS or IG / ADG is assured to everyone joining, for the simple reason that in these organisations, the number of such ranks is equal to the annual intake.

Obviously, number of officers to be commissioned cannot be restricted to the number of Maj Gens, since effective junior leadership is a key requisite of the forces. The civil services are not bound by this requirement and junior level vacancies are filled up by support cadres and promotees. In fact, in case all the civil services also relied on a system of regular professional officers manning the junior level posts, while they might face career progression problems similar to the Army, the quality of administration might improve drastically.

As a corollary, since the organisational requirements are so vastly different, the application of the same yardstick for pay and allowances and parity of status is obviously a flawed approach which leads to gross disparities in the lifetime remunerations between armed forces and civil services officers. A detailed analysis of the average earnings of a sample batch of 100 IAS officers and 100 army officers over their entire service is revealing. Taking the timeframe of promotions and the proportion of officers qualifying for the same at various levels into consideration, the difference between an average officer in the two services works out to over Rs 2 Cr ! (See box for details)

The requirement therefore is for a separate pay commission for the services, which takes into account these peculiarities rather than blindly applying the same yardstick as the civil services. Alternatively, the norm of pay parity in terms of years of service, irrespective of the rank at which each is at any given time should be considered. Thus, an officer with 16 years of service in the forces should get the pay equivalent to the highest pay drawn by any cadre with equivalent service, irrespective of the rank at which either is at that time. An Army officer, who would be a Lt Col at such a service, should therefore draw the pay equivalent to that of a JS if IAS officers of his parallel batch have been promoted to JS. He can continue to be equivalent to a Dir as per the existing warrant of precedence, which in any case makes no material difference at this level. In fact, we could limit the comparison to the level of a Maj Gen, there being no necessity to lay down the equivalence with civil officials below this. Also, the badges of rank of the army need to be distinct from that of Police, CPOs and PMFs, to avoid equivalence being implied needlessly and inaccurately.

For all of the above to take shape, there is a need for creating an understanding that the armed forces are a national asset. While they cannot occupy the position of pre-eminence of a colonial army, due credence and attention should be given to ensuring their ‘Izzat O Iqbal’ at a time when drastic measures are required to preserve their cutting edge.

Vote- because at Delhi
SINGH is KING
The KING is a FINK, ipso facto
SINGH is a FINK

Throw out the FINK democratically