Now, the really damning stuff. Revealed in the report, for the first time, is how the Indian Air Force reacted to the February 2007 crash, in which it lost two helicopter display pilots. According to the report, the IAF observed that (i) HAL has referred to this problem in the flight manual which is brief and lacks clarity; (ii) HAL has been reluctant to address this problem in totality as it feared disruption of ALH production process; (iii) This approach of HAL to safeguard its business even at the cost of a professional approach to solving the problem has serious flight safety and operational implications for the Indian Air Force (v) HAL, as an industry, has rarely looked to exploiting its aircraft. It has always focused on the captive Indian Air Force for its assured market.”
That’s the stuff you only hear about over beer with pilots. But here it is, utterly like it is. Well, HAL had its own input of course. It told the auditor “Control saturation is not a design deficiency but is a phenomenon that can occur during extreme manoeuvres. The precautionary notes and adequate cautions are part of the flight manual. [We are] in the process of incorporating control saturation warning system.”
The auditor concludes, “HAL’s reply leaves a doubt about the effective measures it has taken on the control saturation issue and the reaction of the customers will be known only on the field experience of the ALH to be supplied from the pending orders.”
Of course, the CAG had to reiterate the fact that the Dhruv is 90% foreign in value terms. And add to all of this, HAL’s helicopter complex chief has pushed off on leave — rumour has it, he’s being shunted out.
Report looks more snarky than constructive..if they hav so much issues w/ industry practises of HAL,why dont they hav an inhouse aircraft design R&D team..Its not like IAF suddenly woke up & realize how we do things here in India 🙂
CAG is as sensationalist as any fledgling indian media. Over the years so many incidents have happened in aviation world world-wide with products of several defence companies but those companies have managed it with their PR. But here our opportunity at being self-sufficient is being knocked out.
I hope CAG folks have not been greased by firms to start hitting us wherever we indulge in austerity and self-sufficiency.
Also the timing of all these CAG revelations couldn't have been better. They coincide with IAF's submission of mmrca evaluation report. Perhaps they are sending reminder that they too are around and their "cut" be kept ready.
Not at all surprised. HAL, like other PSUs is filled with people who are guarenteed jobs for life, pensions for life, plenty of snacks everyday etc etc.
One of my friends works at HAL, he told me that they serve snacks at 5pm and many people though they have finished their job, they stay on till 5pm so that they can get free snacks.
This is the pathetic status of our country.
If more and more pvt sector companies become involved then this smug and lethargic behaviour will start to change. But Anthony and his cronies wont allow it because if there is a domestic pvt industry, the middle men who make crores from foreign defence products wont be able to make a living.
Regarding HALs lack of interest to improve flight safety stems from this. A pvt company would have been forced because otherwise noone would buy their products. But HAL doesn't care, IAF will still buy it no matter how junk their product is because the MOD will force it to.
At the end of the day, the losers are the citizens, the tax payers, the poor soldiers who have to rely on this equipment to fight and the nation as a whole.
But then again, who cares, right?
Did the crash in Ecuador earlier this year have anything to do with the problem pointed out here? From what I remember, the onus of the crash was eventually passed on to the pilots as they had, apparently, pulled off an extreme manouevre. HAL states that 'control saturation can occur…during extreme manoeuvres.' Does this mean that the crash was not due to pilot error but ineptness on the part of HAL?
Must be an integration problem. All HAL has to do is figure out which foreign vendor who wrote the control system.
HAL should be rechristened "HELL" !
Indigenous Dhruv ALHs are '90% foreign' –
The Times of India
NEW DELHI:
After 34 years of development, the foreign component in the "indigenous" Arjun main-battle tank still hovers around 50%. Similar is the case with the still under-development Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, which will even in the future fly on imported engines.
And now, it has come to light that another so-called major indigenous defence project, the twin-engine Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), whose design and development began way back in 1984, is still around 90% foreign.
With the defence ministry floundering to lay the foundations for a robust military-industrial base or cutting-edge defence R&D by involving the private sector in a big way, India will continue to import huge quantities of armaments and military sub-systems for a long, long time to come.
"As against the envisaged indigenisation level of 50% (by 2008), 90% of the value of material used in each ALH is still imported from foreign suppliers," says the latest CAG report, tabled in Parliament on Thursday.
"Even though ALH has been in production for 10 years, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has not been able to identify alternative indigenous suppliers," said CAG, which conducted a "performance audit" on the ALH project being run by the defence PSU.
Technical glitches and crashes have also continued to dog the ALH project, which has a sanctioned cost of Rs 2,103 crore till now, putting paid to much-touted ambitious plans to sell the 5.5-tonne helicopter to other countries.
"HAL could not penetrate the international market in the absence of international certification despite showcasing ALH in foreign airshows since 2003 (at a cost of Rs 59 crore). It could not also successfully execute the orders received from the civil market," said CAG.
Even the Indian armed forces, which have inducted around 80 ALHs till now, are not too happy. There has been a huge delay in de-induction of the old Cheetah and Chetak helicopter fleets, adversely affecting operations in high-altitude areas in forward locations.
"The technical requirements finalised in 1979 by Army and IAF have not been fully achieved. The ALH has been found unsuitable for the intended multi-role requirements due to excess weight and limited engine power," said CAG.
The 40 ALHs, inducted by Army under a Rs 1,747 crore contract in March 2006, for instance, cannot fly over 5,000-metre altitude, even though the force had wanted them to have the capability to fly over 6,500 metre. Nevertheless, another Rs 9,490 crore contract for another 105 Dhruvs was inked with HAL in December 2007.
Moreover, the development of a new higher-powered engine Shakti for ALH, in collaboration with foreign company Turbomecca, as well as the helicopter's "weapon system integration version" have both been long delayed.
_____________________
These things have always been there for a laong time but in the name of "*****" kept in the closets. No one knows defence and defense always had good time that the people did not know any thing.
I am glad people have statrted knowing things, are inquisitive, want to know more and the best is that they wish to understand this animal called "Defense".
There can not be anything better than that for a "soldier" whom the entire system treats as "Bounded Labour", "Captive Markets" and means to make "Empires". They throw on him unfit mismatch clothings to keep alive some ordinance factory, rotten dal of FCI, defective weapnary and non functional equiment. Unskilled labour pay and legal frameworks much more draconian than any other law in India.
A huge empire has been built around "Soldier", empire of PSU, OFB, DRDO, Suppliers, Acccountants, CCS Babus, AFHQCS. All are bosses for the "Soldier" are very happy but the "Soldier" who has been rendred dumb and deaf in the name of Civil Supermacy.
No wonder, babudom of MoD and their "Empire" managers hold that concept "Civil Supermacy" to mean their supermacy and holdn that so close to their heart. For them a peon in MoD is superior to Service Chief because he is Civilian!
Let people know every thing as the "Soldier" belongs to the people. They must know it.
Shiv, your contribution, towards that end, is welcome and appriciated.
@ anon 4.02 am
Going by your logic CAG is also interested in a cut of the Army rations since it came out with a similar report on them as well.
Would that be too tough to fathom given double digit inflation and soaring food prices? Not by your logic!!!!
Anyway heads must roll at HAL, display pilots are the best of the bread in any AF and loss of life should never be tolerated.
Unfortunately HAL will never learn, as it has an assured customer and need not compete for business.
Cecx Fable & Gas
Is it not possible that control saturation can occur in any vehicle during extreme manoeuvres.
However the data input and output and the interface may need to be aligned to a best possible extent.
whats wrong if hal employees have snacks ???
I doubt india can ever become a super power. It will also be difficult to maintain itself as a regional power.
Please dont misunderstand. I'm not saying that we don't have the potential, nor am i saying that it is impossible. I'm merely saying that the people in power will never allow it to happen.
To be a superpower, you need to powerful economy, a strong self sufficient military, and a political class with vision – vision to see not just 5 or 10 years ahead but to see 50-100 years ahead. Both USSR and US had their own military industry complex, without having to import (note that espionage of defence materials is something else). They also had vast economies (which the USSR ruined). But most of all, they had vision. They wanted to rule the world – I'm not saying india should go out and conquer territories. But india, like israel should do everything in its power to stop others from destroying what we already have, take the maoists and naxalites and J&K millitants, for instance.
Almost all our leaders are more interested in personal gains, even at the expense of the state. Everywhere you see in india there is corruption. If you want to buy a piece of land (atleast in karnataka), you have to bribe everyone from the peon upto the the top guy-if you choose to be honest and not bribe them, then your file will he left to rot till hell freezes over, this is PERSONAL experience.
In the US, UK and hell even in pakistan! soldiers are given the utmost respect, and any injustice done to them is a no-no. But in india, he is just a tool like everyone else. They suck him dry. They make money out of food he eats, the clothes he wears and the equipment he uses. Even if it means he will be put in danger.
Instead of uniting the population, indian leaders divide them into sects, castes, religions etc so that they can appease their vote banks. When the country is constantly reminded of their differences, how can we be united against external enemies? What we end up is having leaders who suck up to the west for everything. Any time something happens in kashmir, we go to the UN to beg them to do something, we ask uncle sam to rein in the terror.
Is it not possible, like every other major power, to stir up trouble in their country to keep them busy and prevent them from harming our own? You can argue whether this is right or wrong all you want, but the fact is, that it is being done by every major power all over the world and it will continue to happen. Even China and pakistan use this policy.
Only when the rest of society stands up and says, enough is enough, and takes action against these robbers of the nations (who are the real traitors btw) will india have its chance to make good its potential to be a super power. Till then, I'm afraid, we will be stuck in a country filled with their own interests in mind even above those of the nation. We will be stuck in a country that is always mediocre and second class.
I want this to change, I wish for it. But one man alone isnt enough.
Jai Hind
I doubt india can ever become a super power. It will also be difficult to maintain itself as a regional power.
Please dont misunderstand. I'm not saying that we don't have the potential, nor am i saying that it is impossible. I'm merely saying that the people in power will never allow it to happen.
To be a superpower, you need to powerful economy, a strong self sufficient military, and a political class with vision – vision to see not just 5 or 10 years ahead but to see 50-100 years ahead. Both USSR and US had their own military industry complex, without having to import (note that espionage of defence materials is something else). They also had vast economies (which the USSR ruined). But most of all, they had vision. They wanted to rule the world – I'm not saying india should go out and conquer territories. But india, like israel should do everything in its power to stop others from destroying what we already have, take the maoists and naxalites and J&K millitants, for instance.
Almost all our leaders are more interested in personal gains, even at the expense of the state. Everywhere you see in india there is corruption. If you want to buy a piece of land (atleast in karnataka), you have to bribe everyone from the peon upto the the top guy-if you choose to be honest and not bribe them, then your file will he left to rot till hell freezes over, this is PERSONAL experience.
In the US, UK and hell even in pakistan! soldiers are given the utmost respect, and any injustice done to them is a no-no. But in india, he is just a tool like everyone else. They suck him dry. They make money out of food he eats, the clothes he wears and the equipment he uses. Even if it means he will be put in danger.
Instead of uniting the population, indian leaders divide them into sects, castes, religions etc so that they can appease their vote banks. When the country is constantly reminded of their differences, how can we be united against external enemies? What we end up is having leaders who suck up to the west for everything. Any time something happens in kashmir, we go to the UN to beg them to do something, we ask uncle sam to rein in the terror.
Is it not possible, like every other major power, to stir up trouble in their country to keep them busy and prevent them from harming our own? You can argue whether this is right or wrong all you want, but the fact is, that it is being done by every major power all over the world and it will continue to happen. Even China and pakistan use this policy.
Only when the rest of society stands up and says, enough is enough, and takes action against these robbers of the nations (who are the real traitors btw) will india have its chance to make good its potential to be a super power. Till then, I'm afraid, we will be stuck in a country filled with their own interests in mind even above those of the nation. We will be stuck in a country that is always mediocre and second class.
I want this to change, I wish for it. But one man alone isnt enough.
Jai Hind
Sensationalism at its best, how else would a journalist survive in a Globalized world. It is so pathetic that we do not have good analyst who could assess a situation based on all the reports compiled till day. This entire article has been written based on one report. And all the contribution from the blogger was to rewrite what the CAG wrote. The blogger would have done better justice to the readers if he had just posted CAG report rather than trying to incorporate his ability of sensationalism.
The great juries need to remember thing, that their contribution to national security is minuscule when compared to the employees of HAL, DRDO etc. It is possible, yes it is possible for them to quit their job and take lucrative offers in private sector, including that of a sensationalist journalist, but they don't. It is possible for them to just take their guaranteed salary and do nothing too after all if their is no ALH will their be a CAG report.
So if you all don't mind just give them a bit of your God Damn Respect.
DRDO, HAL, the PSUs and Ordinance Factories have been around for decades and yet can hardly produce anything worthwhile for our Armed Forces' needs. What does that tell us?
So long as defence is in the hands of corrupt, socialist Netas and Babus, indifferent and mollycoddled PSU employees, self-serving DRDO/MOD heads who see national security and soldiers' lives as second to their own survival(and assured taxpayer money), WE WILL NEVER HAVE A CREDIBLE DEFENCE INDUSTRY. Only empty promises, glorified failures and scams.
So while Indian private giants like Tata, Reliance, Mahindra, L & T, Infosys make progress only in non-military spheres our armed forces will grumpily continue importing from FOREIGN PRIVATE SECTOR COMPANIES like Thales, Elta, Boeing etc. What a wonderful irony!
This is expected. Has I have been saying before. Name me one reliable indian made product? I am afraid there isn't one!
The best indians engineering grads, leave the country as soon as possible. They prefer to even work as cleaners abroad then remain in India. Off course many then join BR like and become arm chair nationalists. pity….
Paks don't even consider india as a regional power and we promote it as shinning india…..what a joke…we always over sell and under deliver…this is how we are seen abroad as well.
I completely understand when our forces prefer to buy foreign stuff. It works boyz.
[email protected]: you're clearly an obtuse apologist for imperfection and mediocrity. nobody says scientists and engineers don't contribute to national defence (we're not even talking about journalists here).
Hey Shiv,
I have one sincere request for you. Why don't you do an interview with R.Srinivasan-the outgoing HAL Helicopter head and ask him these questions (in the column and in the comments point blank).
Here's a tentative list of questions-
1. Why is Dhruv still 90% foreign made after 34 years of development?
2. Why is the Shakti engine still imported and why has HAL not been able to come up with an indigenous engine?
3. Why is the IAF levelling such accusations to HAL?
4. What has he contributed/achieved to the Dhruv project in terms of measurable benefits?
5. Why could not HAL make the Dhruv rotor foldable so that the Navy could use it?
These are just questions off my mind, but these would be a great start. If you could do this interview, it would really be an eye-opener. In-competence must be put forth to the world for competence to come in.
Those who are going gaga over private sector are completely ignorant about how they are solely surviving on dishing out shoddy products due to a monopolistic market(kept in place in connivance with equally corrupt and incompetent GOI). How many of them have developed a global brand? Infosys – making profits by exporting cheap indian IT workers.Nothing more than glorified contractor aka "thekedar".Just check out their HR practices.
M&M, Tata – are yet to develop a world class product.All their stuffs are shoddy and low quality.Our soldiers need best stuff in the world not the "cheapest car which bursts into flames."
Reliance – the biggest crook out of all Indian companies.They have reached where they are by keeping the Indian mkt uncompetitive and greasing the palms of the netas.
What have they produced since India's independence? It is due to this nexus between our netas and few business houses that India is such are poverty stricken third class economy. Let there be "PERFECT COMPETITION". Let them compete with the best companies with products developed 100% thru their own efforts. Not like M&M which is tying up with major international defense companies and passing foreign products as their own (merely changing the logo). These Indian companies are the biggest thieves.If they are allowed, we will be putting the lives of our soldiers in serious risk. Almost all Indian products are low quality and never function properly. They should be the last persons to complain as they are doing the same things that they are accusing these defense PSUs of.
Those who are criticizing Dhruv, most probably are not aware that Dhruv is a clone of German MBB BK117. Even USA has used the same chopper for their UH72 Lakota.
This is a proven German technology.It's Indian just for the name sake. Very much like the Arjun which is actually German Leopard 2A4.
I am afraid, our venerable IAF is turning out to be another corruption ridden Indian Army.Instead of whining they should have got involved in the project actively instead of indulging in mudslinging contest. No matter how much you educate an Indian you can't change is primitive feudal casteist mentality.This incident just shows turf warfare and massive ego conflicts at the cost of welfare of billion + poor Indians.
Why HAL is not using FBW tech for this problem? In case of extreme maneuvers the tech will make the necessary corrections or stop short from crossing the danger limit.
Here is my opinion-every1 tells how this product has blah% of foreign parts etc.anybody thought why we use foreign parts?answer-we dont have quality parts manufacturers!as easy as that!are bhaiya jab thohar pas parts naahi hai kouno udankhatolwa(helos) banane vaste,to ka angan me se khod kar nikale ka?Khali shor machat rahe ki bidesi samaan zyada use karat ho.pahile acchhe spare parts manufacturing ko encourage karo(financially or by using der products)!ratanwa(tata) ko samjhai ke f-insas tak etna jaldi pahunchne ke pahle(its great but) equipments to badhiya bana le!navy ka babua log e disha me achha kam kiye.waise baki do fouj wale bhaiya sabhi kare!
Thanku-KALU PARSAD YADAV
Hahahahahaha
[email protected]
you said:
The great juries need to remember thing, that their contribution to national security is minuscule when compared to the employees of HAL, DRDO etc.
While Shiv has been magnenimous, I wish to tell you that CAG is a constitutional authority who monitors public finance on behalf og Parliament of India as they are the real controller and approver of even a single penny. The Govt can spend even a single penny any where, not even for HAL. So CAG reports are "constitutional reports" on the govt. Monitoring Public money is the biggest National Security, brother.
So they perform a role.
You guys accusing CAG of corruption, backhand deals, greasing the palm etc is most unfortunate.
Why do'nt HAL says that, yes shorcoming existed and they will correct it.
The role of media is to put things in front of you to inform, educate and may be comment, with a view to build enlightened openion and outcome.
Have three snacks but produce something !
I wonder if the Swedes will question Gripen about indigenous content
Assuming the percentage of indigenization being talked about is in terms of cost price, the lower 10% indigenization could be due to lower cost of indian work portion as compared to costs of imported components. In that case, if indian work portion was expensive the % indigenization would have been higher !!!
Anon @8:26
Are you a PSU employee or relative thereof? Because your answer to the bitter facts about PSUs seems to be to repeat them and replace PSU with private.
Read Ajai Shukla's blog. If companies like Tata and L & T were given the same benefits as PSUs(research grants, support from MoD babus, assured orders etc.) they'd run circles around the likes of HAL and BEL. Why else do you think the PSU unions vehemently opposed the RuR scheme for private defence companies?
As it is even with these handicaps Indian private firms have still excelled in the few cases where they tried. Mahindra and Ashok Leyland have developed armored vehicles that surpass anything the Ordinace Factories build, L & T was able to fabricate entire hulls for ATV in record time despite having no experience with submarine construction(Navy wanted them to build the 2nd submarine line, not government-owned HSL Shipyard which has had a history of delays with upgrading the Kilo subs), Tata built an indigenous communication system for the Indian Army that was rejected in favour of BEL's Chinese-derived solution purely out of political reasons etc.
If our government supported the private defence sector the way Western governments do(no, not the scams; keep your snarky comments to yourself) we'd already have a defence industry at least compatible with Korea and South Africa.
Sorry, I meant 'comparable', not 'compatible'.
Mr. Shiv,
I am not an apologist, I am a solution provider in my role. And I do tasks with responsibility that people say is not possible under difficult circumstances.
The age of internet has spawn a new variety of players called blogger and comment posters. All that is needed is a click. Such is the ease that there is no interest to analyze or evaluate a situation. Just because something is possible doesn't mean that it is responsible.
Have you seen people chewing pan spitting on walls, that is exactly what happens on internet now. Unfortunately they never add to the solution but only to the problem and then magnifies it many a times, with disregard to those who put the effort on ground to get things done.
It is quite easy to criticize, anyone can just come and spit on that wall. But we will only have the employees of HAL, DRDO and other defense institutions now to better India's efforts towards creating defense equipments. When you say HAL did they all belong there the engineers, scientist, the management, the security, the sweepers and all. What the nation believes is in collective responsibility. When the ship sinks everyone on it gets affected. Did the CAG or any blogger or journalist anywhere say that the report only condemns a section in HAL, no they didn't. So when you further fuel the criticism by presenting an article of your own rather than the CAG report itself, you are insulting the efforts put by each and every person in that organization without considering the merit and that is my point of contention.
Criticize them, it is acceptable but sensationalize a criticism that doesn't augur well with ethos
Anon@3:31
Tata owns Jaguar.
Jaguar is a top of the line car.
To anon@9:46 PM
"The great juries"
That was a sarcasm at the way media and few posters were reacting and did not mean the CAG.
"The role of media is to put things in front of you to inform, educate and may be comment, with a view to build enlightened openion and outcome."
Inform, educate and comment are the qualities needed for the media. And is that what they do? Are they informing or speculating, are they educating and commenting or sensationalizing?
@Gautam,
It is still hard for our generation to understand the socialist approach taken by the leaders of India after independence. But from their context it was not the governments role to hand walk with the private sector. It may be wrong today but was right for them then. Its effects will take time to wither. But then getting and slapping the public sector at every bad news is not the solution, it is to build the private sector with or without the government hand.
Question is who has the will, would you invest in it, would you take that risk or will you wait for someone else to do it?
anon@3:31
control saturation is a simple physics phenomenon of a body travelling on a planar curved path, much like how a two wheeler rider visibly banks to one side while negotiating a curve which has not been adequately banked.
For roads there are strict guidelines of the nagle of banking so that mv(sq)/r can balance out m*g i.e. force acting towards center can be cancelled by gravity. IF the speed of banking is faster than the weight acting downwards or suppose in a 3D movement of heptr, the speed is less than that of weight + vertical component actin downwards, control saturation occurs. The only help is if there is sufficient altitude left to regain control, other wise a/c will fall like an apple. So the control system depends on the speed of banking, angle of turn and curvature of turn.
there is nothing wrong in criticizing or with the CAG report….one thing that every one should keep in mind is that at least v hav industries which builts helicopter…no matter how it builts….its good enough that we hav helicopters like dhruv which can go upto the altitude of 5000mt…HAL for sure will improve in the future projects…. Dhruv is the only Crash worthy product by HAL…So plz be optimistic that it will try to build the products which exceed the requirements of GSQR of IAF….See at pakistan its doing so much noise over a 3rd gen J-17….and we ppl expect HAL to be world standard in its debut heli project… once GRTE will built engine( which is on the way of completion)ovr countries prob for enine for LCA,ARJUN, VESSELS…will be finished once for alll…..Our defence industries are still in budding stage….
@Sanu
Are to kisane tumko bola ki Tum Uran khatolao banao ! Apna naukri bachawat waste auran ko marawat rahin tum log. Paap lagi hai bhaiya.
Waise bhi pura Babu logan man bhain ka koi kami nahin. Ab PSU man bhi bhaya giri karat sochi.
[email protected]: stop nitpicking. obviously it means a section of HAL and not everyone. isn't that true for anything. anyone with half a brain can figure that. btw, are you a solution provider at HAL? 🙂
@Sanu
You say we dont have quality manufacturing.I agree. But I think its more than just PSUs. It is the Indian psyche. The pvt sector WOULD produce BETTER products than the PSUs. However, whether they would be world class, I don't know. I have worked in the manufacturing of satellite sensors and missile guidance systems in the west for some time. The client (in most cases) was always a govt organisation, such as NASA, USAF or the USNavy. The difference there is that the NAvy would come every 2 weeks to inspect what we did and make sure we are maintaining quality. In india, if this were to happen, shoddy parts would be pushed to the navy (or any force) by providing "incentives" to them – such as a bribe etc in order to save money. Indians in general are willing to be dishonest if it means they can make a quick buck (I'm not saying all indians but quite a few of them).
Why else can india not even manufacture a car gear box even after so long? TATA (before LR and Jag) used to import these from others for their cars.
The thing is, indians are some of the smartest (and hard working) people around, I know because many western companies want to hire them. But many seem to lack ethics.
Its very sad because our nation can be the greatest on this earth but noone in power is willing to sacrifice their interests for the nation.
TO THOSE CRITICIZING THE CAG REPORT:
It may be true that CAG had some incentive to be critical. But do you actually think this is far from the truth? If you do.. then it seems funny that noone wants to buy DRDO products, not even the indian army (for instance look at the arjun tank). Apart from the limited production to the armed forces, has anyone outside the country even considered buying anything DRDO makes? Dhruv, though the best success so far, has been limited to a handful of countries who've purchased not more than 3-4 choppers. Doesn't that explain something?
Do you also think the CAG report which said people are stealing money from the armed forces rations by providing expired items to the troops is also false? If it is.. what do they gain? media attention? money?
EVERYTHING stated in the report might not be correct, but there is a lot of truth in it.
the 40 10% "indegenous" dhruv ALHs, inducted by Army under a Rs 1,747 crore contract in March 2006, for instance, cannot fly over 5,000-metre altitude, even though the force had wanted them to have the capability to fly over 6,500 metre. Nevertheless, another Rs 9,490 crore contract for another 105 Dhruvs was inked with HAL in December 2007.
cheap indian PSU crap! no wonder the armed forces want to import.
it works out great though, think about it:
(a)PSU employees get great jobs with little responsibility or accountability
(b)armed forces (try to) get the best equipment from foreign vendors
(c)middle men siphon off several crores personally whenever a foreign purchase is made
(d)babus get free visas for their children and relatives to countries like US and UK in exchange for purchase of equipment from these countries.
so why change anything?
Just for Shiv…Please don't post this
First, apologize for being an anonymous nitpicker.
I hope you got a chance to read the 123 agreement or the Nuclear Liability bill, nothing is implicit, everything has to be explicit. It holds true for any engineering requirement or design.
Never leave anything for the readers to expand and misinterpret, that can create a storm out of the coffee cup. Many great figures have fallen down in it and many people had been killed because of it. (Remember the Jammu & Kashmir alleged rape of two girls by the security force, the point from where Kashmir reached to the current state?)
Nope I am a solution provider at a private sector company, even where things can go worse, to unimaginable levels. I was a big supporter of private sector and blamed all the inefficiency in the public sector. But recently my eyes opened to the fact that everywhere it is similar people who have same basic nature. Recently I went to a village office in my place, what took a week previously just took two hours to complete, they computerized the entire office. These days even if the electricity goes, it comes back in two minutes and very rarely it may take two hours, unless there is some severe issue. I must accept even I faced the music of some good people for being such a pessimist in the initial days.
So there may at least be some improvement. But how many such post do you see on internet on India? I don't see much on forums that I visit. So at the end even when things better, people neither see it nor appreciate it.
It is not just in defense that we need to improve. By making better defense equipments we are looking at a better and strong India, a nation that we can be proud of. But defense alone cannot help us, we need a better society where people say "What can I do for you India?" rather than "What can you do for me India?". Even if we create the mother of all bombs we will crumble if we are rotten inside [USSR].
There has to be something good in everything otherwise its existence itself will be curtailed by the nature. So when I see comments from people going all gaga about how every thing is bad, I go a bit overboard and I feel the blogger too id responsible for allowing such irresponsible comments [including mine, I never expected you would allow such personal criticism to be posted].
Criticism and self introspection are good and betters the today, but don't let those passer by's to come and spit in our garden. They don't own up responsibility, they don't contribute positively, but they will increase the post count and site hits.
Once again my sincere apologize for having an idealistic perverted mind. I wish you would remove my posts if you feel they are not sane.
Hey but thank you for your valuable time. Have a great time ahead 🙂
anon@3:31
Hey anon@3:31/7.58pm
Your statement regarding loss of power being only for a "few" minutes shocked me! In karnataka (bangalore and mysore, both big cities) there is loss of power for long durations almost everyday! So as far as i'm concerned, your statement isn't entirely true. It may be so in your city but not all over india.
I do, however, agree with your statement that the indian psyche has to change. Most people in india are of the type that want to make a quick buck even if it means destroying your own motherland. The best examples are those of forests where large parts are chopped down and a few benefit from it, but it is a loss to our country. Same with mining, poaching (where the poacher walks scott free if he bribes those who catch him) etc. This mentality of dishonesty is increasing in india by the day. If you want to purchase land, you need to bribe everyone from the peon to the top gun without which your application will rott in a drawer.
In karnataka, if you want to apply for a driving license, there are two queues. One for those who have paid the Rs500 bribe and one for those who havent. Can you guess who will "pass" the driving test?
There are people here, who can get you an MBBS certificate for a fee. Now, if you go out and (mal)"practice" and a patient dies, well you can bribe someone else and get out of it too. So as long you have money, india is the best place on earth because theres a solution (via bribes) to everything!
With this sort of dishonesty inherent in every indian, how can you hope for greater things?indians are (as far as i've seen, and i've been around the world most of my life) one of the most dishonest people on the planet. Its very very sad, because they are also some of the brightest and innovative.
@Gautam
You are not only stupid and ignorant, but rude as well. Does it matter whether someone is from PSU or Pvt Co.? If you want to know then I have exp in both the set ups. I have worked in India's largest PSU and also in one of the top 20 MNCs of the world. I have seen both the worlds and I know their pluses and minuses.
PSUs are lethargic and laid back, but they are effective whereas the Pvt. Cos. only tom tom about their efficiency but they are the most ineffective and dysfunctional set ups. Here the Indian Pvt Cos are the worst.They don't have any ethics or values. They are only good at scheming ways and means to make money without investing anything in return.
You are quoting Ajay Shukla. Does he have any exposure in the corporate world??? I guess he retired from IAF.
Read my earlier comment more carefully. Those vehicles that you are boasting are all foreign stuff for example the Mahendra Axe is an Israeli Vehicle and this is also the case with armored vehicles "developed" by TATAs. In other words they are nothing but middlemen who have added no value to the final product. Wouldn't it be cheaper if we imported these vehicles or made them via ToT thru our PSUs?
TATAs,Mahendras, Birlas etc. are manufacturing vehicles since India's independence. In last more than 60 yrs which of their product is considered to be a world class product? Ans is not even one.Today people buy Indian brands only if they cannot afford those foreign brands. In the armed forces where our jawans and officers are risking their lives, can we afford to crown them with shoddy Indian products?
Its one thing to hammer few metal plates and make a hull out of it and another thing to build a complete submarine.
Regarding Tata telecom, the less said the better.One of the worst and most unprofessional service providers. TATAs have no expertise in the telecom arena. You may not be aware that all their infrastructure is being managed by MNC telecom Cos. like Alcatel, Erickson etc. They only act as the middlemen.
All these companies like TATA, Birla and MAhendras are into everything i.e. from selling vegetables and clothes to mobile phone, automobiles etc. Can you say the same thing about Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE, EADS etc? Now you know why their Govt supports them and why our Govt is reluctant to support our "Indian" Cos?
We are one of the most corrupt people and our companies typify our character.
Let's not fool around with the lives of our brave Jawans.
@Gautam
You are not only stupid and ignorant but rude as well. Does it matter whether someone is from PSU or Pvt Co.? If you want to know then I have exp in both the set ups. I have worked for India's largest PSU and one of the top 20 MNCs of the world. I have seen both the worlds and I know their pluses and minuses.
PSUs are lethargic and laid back, but they are effective whereas the Pvt. Cos. only tom tom about their efficiency but are the most ineffective and dysfunctional set ups. Here the Indian Pvt Cos are the worst.They don't have any ethics or values. They are only good at scheming ways to make money without investing anything in return.
You are quoting Ajay Shukla. Does he have any exposure in the corporate world??? I guess he retired from IAF.
Read my earlier comment more carefully. Those vehicles that you are boasting are all foreign tech for example the Mahendra Axe is an Israeli Vehicle and this is also the case with armored vehicles developed by TATAs. In other words they are nothing but middlemen who have added no value to the final product. Wouldn't it be cheaper if we imported these vehicles or made them via ToT thru our PSUs?
TATAs,Mahendras, Birlas etc. are manufacturing vehicles since India's independence. In last more than 60 yrs which of their product is considered to be a world class product? Ans is not even one.Today people buy Indian brands only if they cannot afford those foreign brands. In the armed forces where we our jawans and officers are risking their lives, can we afford to crown them with shoddy Indian products?
Its one thing to hammer few metal plates and make a hull out of it and another thing to build a submarine.
Regarding Tata telecom, the less said the better.One of the worst and most unprofessional service providers. TATAs have no expertise in the telecom arena. You may not be aware that all their infrastructure is being managed by MNC telecom Cos. like Alcatel, Erickson etc. They only act as the middlemen.
All these companies like TATA, Birla and MAhendras are into everything i.e. from selling vegetables and clothes to mobile phone, automobiles etc. Can you say the same thing about Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE, EADS etc? Now you know why their Govt supports them and why our Govt is reluctant to support our "Indian" Cos?
@Gautam
PSUs are lethargic and laid back, but they are effective whereas the Pvt. Cos. only tom tom about their efficiency but are the most ineffective and dysfunctional set ups. Here the Indian Pvt Cos are the worst.They don't have any ethics or values. They are only good at scheming ways to make money without investing anything in return.
You are quoting Ajay Shukla. Does he have any exposure in the corporate world??? I guess he retired from IAF.
Those vehicles that you are boasting are all foreign tech for example the Mahendra Axe is an Israeli Vehicle and this is also the case with armored vehicles developed by TATAs. In other words they are nothing but middlemen who have added no value to the final product. Wouldn't it be cheaper if we imported these vehicles or made them via ToT thru our PSUs?
TATAs,Mahendras, Birlas etc. are manufacturing vehicles since India's independence. In last more than 60 yrs which of their product is considered to be a world class product? Ans is not even one.Today people buy Indian brands only if they cannot afford those foreign brands. In the armed forces where we our jawans and officers are risking their lives, can we afford to crown them with shoddy Indian products?
Its one thing to hammer few metal plates and make a hull out of it and another thing to build a submarine.
Regarding Tata telecom, the less said the better.One of the worst and most unprofessional service providers. TATAs have no expertise in the telecom arena. You may not be aware that all their infrastructure is being managed by MNC telecom Cos. like Alcatel, Erickson etc. They only act as the middlemen.
All these companies like TATA, Birla and MAhendras are into everything i.e. from selling vegetables and clothes to mobile phone, automobiles etc. Can you say the same thing about Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE, EADS etc? Now you know why their Govt supports them and why our Govt is reluctant to support our "Indian" Cos?
You throw abuse and then accuse the other of being rude. And either you are computer illiterate or reposted the same thing thrice to 'make an impact'. How mature!
Tell me, how many vehicles has any PSU automaker built that dominate the Indian market and are known and sold abroad(speaking of ignorance, do you know how many countries Mahindra tractors are sold in? Or Tata's trucks? That it includes the US?)? How great is the MTNL/BSNL service that didn't even pick up the phone when I hada complaint to make for over two days
How is it that these super-efficient PSUs lose market share and teeter on the verge of bankruptcy within years of opening up a sector to private players?(Telecom, Airlines…)
@HAL Howlers
My brothers, you might have done wonders all right, but consider a few questions :
Is is Military imagination that More than 4000 km of Indian border lies along areas aound 4500m and to fly in those areas you need a hellicopter which can climb beyond or upto 5500 m?
Is it Military's doing that they needa hellicopter which can provide a little safty to their militarymen?
Is it military's doing that they need a hellicopter which can compete if not win against Huy Cobras and those possessed by the Chines.
Is not it true that people have been wiating for your achievements?
Is not true that you have guzzled enough money of the tax payers including tax payers from the Forces?
What are you all talking about?
Pull up your socks or get aside !
Solution provider provide solutions and do not create problems. Forcing things on user is no way of surviving which has become your habit.
@Gautam
It seems you are back to your boorish self.Check carefully, you will find the last two posts shorter than the first.You can't post long comments, that's the message I got while posting first two comments. Apparently this is not the case.Now anyone with average IQ, will understand this.
It seems you have not heard of BHEL, BEML and Maruti? It is Maruti which started affordable quality cars in India. Not HM, M&M or Tata.
Tata trucks and M&M tractors are sold in USA? LMFAO, from where r u getting such crap info? Even our beloved Ambys r also sold in UK.Do you consider such few quantities as "exports"?
All MTNL/BSNL complaints are handled by call centers.Mister you are lying.They are considered one of the Nav Ratnas and are very much making profits.
If you own a 4 or 2 wheeler where do you go for petrol? Reliance, Essar, Shell..?? If you use LPG again from where do you buy your gas, Reliance, Shell or Indian Oil, BPCL, HPCL?
Can our Pvt. Cos match the performance of ISRO, BARC, NCL etc.?
TATA trucks are NOT sold in the US. Thats a load of bull! Tata Daewoo trucks are sold in SK etc.. but keep in mind it is not "indian" in the sense that daewoo is an aquired brand. The same goes for land rover and jaguar.
Do you remember the "TATA city".. or as it was popularly sold as "city rover" in the UK. Guess how many sold?
I agree that pvt sector in india is MUCH better than the PSU. However, dont try to compare the indian pvt sector to the western one.
Airtel is spreading in the "developing" world of africa. Want to know why? Because they can easily bribe people there and get a better deal for maximum profit. Noone in the west has heard of airtel or Reliance. In the UK, very few white people join TCS or WIPRO because the salary they offer is much lower than local or international companies. They hire graduates because they can be bought cheap due to sheer desparation.
I'm sorry you think the indian pvt sector is something of a gem, but its not. Its just the better of the two evils (i.e the PSUs)
Indian companies become widely known by buying out other companies. They don't have any "organic" growth as such.
Well, that confirms it. You do indeed have a vested interest in your angered pro-PSU spittle.
Each and every one of Maruti's cars(even back before it got privatised) was a licence-built Suzuki model. The famed 800 was none other than the Suzuki Alto. I'm surprised you don't know this after all your mud-slinging about Mahindra and Tata vehicles.
Then again, considering you've closed your eyes to publicly available facts out of socialist spite alone I shouldn't be surprised.
About Mahindra tractors and Tata trucks, read these and weep.
http://www.mahindrausa.com/
http://www.tractorforum.com/f202/anybody-own-mahindra-tractor-3593/
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/mahindra-owning-operating/51337-mahindra-now-4th-largest-tractor.html
Tata trucks;
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2004/04/22/stories/2004042201320200.htm
http://www.manufacturingdigital.com/sectors/automotive/tata-open-truck-assembly-unit-sa
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2003/09/07/stories/2003090701621300.htm
And you know perfectly well what the public opinion of MTNL and BSNL service is in India but again choose to argue otherwise. Fine.
Now for your final crutch; it is true that we need PSU oil firms to control prices through subsidies, being a developing nation. However private players could play a bigger role Government policies about private oil exploration were liberalised. As it is it was Reliance who was responsible for some of our biggest recent finds, like the Gujarat basin one.
This is called hijacking the issue !
That is how not to provide solution !
That is how people deliberately lead issues away..
Form HAL and Helicopters we have plunged into ruccus..
I did not know PSU Union is so strong ! That is how "Interests " are formed. And Indians are quick into it !
So, watch out your Union activities since you are dealing with those who do not have unions. The day Military forms a Union, you all had it !
And anon @ 3:51
I agree about the Indian private sector not being at par with their Western counterparts, especially in the field of R & D innovation. But they would still do better than our current Defence PSU structure if given the chance. If we are to have a domestic defence industry, I'd rather at least have both public and private involvement rather than a monpopoly for PSU's that have assured funding, no risks and nothing to lose from failure.
Goodness!! Why do people become so irrationally passionate on these forums… Half the facts thrown around are utter bu11$#it..
Anon @ 3:51
You say "Airtel is spreading in the "developing" world of africa. Want to know why? Because they can easily bribe people there and get a better deal for maximum profit. Noone in the west has heard of airtel or Reliance. "
I work for Airtel! We bought from Zain, not the Africa govt, so whom did we bribe? Zain?!!!
Airtel is there coz Africa is where the growth will come from in the next decade, not Europe!
Idiots!
@Gautam 3 million $ exports is peanuts for a country the size of Russia.Tata motors was in the red last few years so how much were they earning out of these "exports"? You have forwarded links to few vintage comments in some "tractor forum". Can you forward some more credible and latest info?
If you say that Maruti is nothing but Suzuki, then what is Ambassador, Premiere Padmini and Mahendra Jeep???? Tata cars are designed and developed by foreign companies. They are not the fruits of home grown efforts.
Those who are criticizing PSUs have most probably never worked in one.The sheer size and scale of PSUs is mind boggling. Of course there is lot of inertia as there are no threats of losing your job. But you have one of the best brains in these companies. All the foreign lubricant manufacturers entered India in a big way and now except few hardly any of them are around. This shows the strength of PSUs. I am not trying to protect or defend PSUs, but I am trying to make people aware what these Indian Pvt companies actually are. I am all for 100% PERFECT COMPETITION. If these Pvt companies are so super efficient why are they stopping 100% foreign investment in defense and other sectors of the economy? WHy are they feeling threatened if they are so strong? Just open the market and you will see what they are in reality. Foreign investments will lead to MNCs setting up major R&D and manufacturing facilities in India to cater to local and global markets. In other words India will be the next China. The biggest enemies of India are these politicians, Indian Pvt. Companies and bureaucrats who due their vested interests are creating hurdles in the path of foreign companies to invest in India.I am against this crony capitalism.
@Anon 11.18
As per Alvin Tofler future of wealth is knowledge. So, where will maximum knowledge creation take place USA, Europe or Africa????? 🙂
Aside from institutions like BARC, ISRO and some DRDO labs I can't understand the 'best minds' comment. The people who are employed by PSUs are more often than not, those who couldn't secure lucrative employment in private sector. Around 40 percent of jobs their are awarded on reservation rather than pure merit, and such companies have high turnover with employees constantly looking for chances to leave for more lucrative private jobs, making it hard to retain talent. And lastly the abscence of performance-based incentives, unquestionable job security, bureaucratic red tape and mismanagement make for an environment that is not conductive to getting things done.
"Foreign investments will lead to MNCs setting up major R&D and manufacturing facilities in India to cater to local and global markets. In other words India will be the next China. " Anything wrong there? China has leveraged all this foreign-funded R & D for their own success through reverse-engineering and reusing the talent and technology developed.
I'd love to see foreign defence multinationals like Boeing, Raytheon, EADS and BAE systems set up divisions in India similar to Thales' various regional divisions to facilitate R & D for products sold to India, rather than importing them wholesale from European and North American divisions.
BTW Tata's Indica/Indigo/Safari/Sumo/Nano/Truck range uses extensive in-house R & D for which they hire hundreds of new automobile engineers every year, foreign inputs notwithstanding. Same with Mahindra's truck and tractor lines.
But the Maruti 800, Omni and Esteem were all just licence built versions of Suzuki models, just like the Willy's Jeep originally marketed by Mahindra and the Ambassador.
@Gautam
Gujarat basin? LMFAO, Reliance has it's refineries in Gujarat not Oil and Gas fields. Their biggest discovery is in Krishna Godavari Basin in Andhra Pradesh. What expertise does Reliance have in Oil and Gas exploration? Big anda zero. They poached these talented geologists from ONGC a PSU, which did all the research and the fruits are being enjoyed by a corrupt businessman who knows how to milk the system.Reliance used their political influence to buy these oil and gas fields at throw away prices and exploited the knowledge and talent of a PSU which spent millions discovering these sites.India's biggest enemies are these corrupt netas,babus and baniyas.
anon@11:18 PM
I'm sorry, you are mistaken. The African growth story has been told for years! I work for an investment agency in the west and I can assure you, other than mineral and oil exploitation, there wont be any "growth". We are looking to india, china and the far east.
The developed markets will not grow in the same sense as india and china but will continue to evolve, hence there will ALWAYS be plenty of marketing opportunities.
Incase you are unaware, you should read up about how China is bribing its way into africa and every other country that has resources that it wants to exploit. The "bribing" airtel will do in africa is not when they buy/bought zain but rather their expansion! Airtel will offer a cheap service, not necessarily a quality service.
Airtel reported flat growth in revenue and profits for the quarter ended Dec. 31, even as its mobile customer base increased 40 percent from a year earlier. Airtel's average revenue per user dropped by 29 percent in the quarter, compared to a year earlier.
The African market is likely to have the same characteristics as the Indian market, and tariffs and margins will also be under pressure over time.
The challenge for Bharti is to evolve a low-cost model that it can deploy across India and the new markets it plans to address, Bhatia said
@Gautam
I completely agree with you. The pvt sector in india is nowhere near as good as the west. However, the PSUs in indian are nothing but job factories. The jobs are given out on the basis of nepotism and reservations and not on merit. On top of that there is no accountability, so they can sit and twiddle their thumbs for 45 years and earn a decent pension without ever having to do a hard days work which they would in a pvt company.
anon @ 3:51
^^^Ass hole!!! HAL jobs are not pensionable unlike DRDO(old)!!!! There is a proposal for pensdion seheme!!!Sitting and twiddling your thumbs, is in your screwed up mind!!!
whta do you expect,work for HAL for 45 years instead of going to US of A (like many sold out NRI IT babaus)and end up begging on the roads,with no one to look after at the age of 60, as we are mimicking everything US!!!!
@Gautam
Your comments reflect how ignorant you are about PSUs. The top PSUs primarily recruit from top engineering institutes like IITs and top MBA institutes like IIMs,TISS, XLRI etc. Only those CA are selected who have passed in the first attempt. Pls don't open your gop if you don't know anything. There is hardly any attrition in PSUs even IITians usually stick to these companies. The problem of attrition is there in private sector.
In PSUs, at least the one that I have worked in, annual bonus depends upon your performance.The head of officers association in one of the largest PSU was sacked.I have myself sacked several employees. So the notion of "job security in PSUs" is a myth. Wrt to bureaucracy and red tape, several PSUs are constantly awarded one of the best managed companies by AT Kearney and also Best Places to work.
Better do some homework b4 posting your comments.
The Germans are one of the toughest task masters and they are not partnering with ISRO and DRDO without any reason.
I am also advocating 100% open competition.Here it is the private sector that is squirming at the very thought of competing with the best.All these Indian Pvt. Cos are purely family run businesses. I don't want the nation's collective wealth to be handed over to few JhunJhunwalas, Batliwalas or Kabuliwalas.
@anon5:51 PM
I dont know what HAL you are talking about, but I have some friends who work there and they all will get pensions. I have learnt about HAL from many sources including my friends. So stop talking BS and go back to your bharat-ratshak.
@anon 9:30 PM
what planet do you live on? Noone from IIT goes to work in a PSU. They move to the west of work in a private company where they get paid in big bags. Only those who dont want to do work go to PSUs.. and there arent many of those at IIT or IIM.
If we assume what you say is right… then people who work at DRDO and HAL are IITians, and they still cant make a decent plane or tank or chopper because the army chooses to import, then IIT must surely suck! The only moron here is you!
You say "annual bonus depends on your performance".. but you PSU morons do nothing and then you get bonuses too?
Come to bharat-rakshak and we will teach you a thing or two about PSUs. We have more knowledge collectively than you can ever hope to have.
Rahul from BR
anon@9:30 PM
you are you from a PSU. All you people do is sit and eat and take home taxpayers dosh. What do you know about work?
You think IITians come to PSUs?? so is that why the dhruv cant even sell on the international market? Is that why arjun isnt even accepted in large numbers by the army? Is that why after 30 years HAL is still developing the LCA and kaveri engine? Maybe IITians are morons if what you say is true.
anon@5:51 PM.. you are a effin ratshaker! go back to your stupid website and discuss your nonsense there.
Do you expect everyone to believe that people working at HAL dont get pensions? Are you stupid?
My dad is a senior officer at BARC, considered one of the best government-run institutions in India, so there I have a first-hand source. And I know from him that around 40% of new BARC employees are hired on quota basis, that no matter how lazy or nepotistic employees are(he's had many problems with that in his departments) there's not much that can be done to take action against them beyond maybe delaying promotions, and that there isn't much in the way of financial incentives to encourage hard work.
There are many, many articles about the attrition in PSUs, but as with the Tata/Mahindra export examples you will just close your eyes and keep ignoring them, so there's no point arguing this any further.
You are advocating competition? Then let's see you voice your anger next time a PSU union strikes against privatisation or liberalisation of policies, or when MoD tenders are manipulated by AK 'Communist' Antony again and again to cut out private players in favour of Ordinace Factories whose unions are terrified at the mere thought of competing against Tata. I see you still haven't read Colonel Shukla's articles on that.
Gautam, there is no point arguing with these PSU morons. They work there so they are very "proud" of their jobs where they get paid to do nothing all day.
What they dont seem to understand is that ALL AROUND THE WORLD, PSUs have been sold off over time and has led to powerful private players emerging. Only in communist countries to PSUs continue to exist. The only problem is, india isn't like china because there nepotism doesnt work!
These people are bloody ratshak people who like to talk and talk and do no work.
It would be too harsh to say PSUs do nothing. They all have their fair share of hard-working and dedicated employees. But there are many institutions like GTRE(which has yet to develop a single operational engine in its 50 years of existence) and BEL(which has crappy R & D skills and survives only because it has domestic monopoly on the manufacture of all defence electronics) which are bleeding our defence funds dry. If this were Russia or China DRDO and the various Ordinance Factories and DPSUs would have MAJOR shake-ups in their employment structure. But the Russo-Chinese meithod of harsh 'perform-or-perish' Socialism cannot be applies to Indian cos because of votebank politics with labor unions. Therein lies the main problem with Indian PSUs.
@To all those ignorant morons who are abusing PSUs. My advise to them is don't get your petrol filled in any PSU petrol pumps, use only Reliance and Essar. Get your LPG only from Reliance or Shell. If you live in a village, use the local baniya for your finance not SBI.If you use fertilizers ensure that they are the costly pvt. company fertilizers.Don't use Amul or Mother Dairy products.Buy only expensive Britannia milk products.
The rational for creating PSUs was not efficiency or profits. India was a very different country in 1947, vast majority of people posting comments here don't realize this fact.PSUs were created for self reliance and they have done an excellent job.Today it is due to PSUs that India is making articles ranging from safety pins to spacecrafts.
Several CEOs both serving and retired are actually from IIT or IIMs.So assholes if u don't know anything don't display your ignorance.
Also let's privatize military. In their camouflaged uniform will be displayed bright logo "Sahara India Parivar".
@Gautam If all PSU employees are corrupt and incompetent that means even your dad is also one of those corrupt and incompetent people? Why is he getting his salary? To sit on his arse the whole day? If that happens how are the nuke plants running so well?
Your derisive comments about SC/ST people reflects your racist Indian mindset. Only those candidates who have certain grades qualify for recruitment.I have found hardly any difference between general and SC/ST candidates.They too are selected after a tough competition.
The best and the brightest join investment banks or go abroad.But a large number of them do join PSUs.There is tough competition for getting jobs in the top PSUs.
MR. Anon@1:02 PM
You say.. ""Only those candidates who have certain grades qualify for recruitment." .. If you are willing to pay the right amount I can get you a job in the PSU of your choice. I know people. Heck, I know people who have got a high rank in the CET (govt entrance test in karnataka) by bribing the right people. Your lack of knowledge of how things work in india is amazing! I bet you live in the UK or something.
You also say "The rational for creating PSUs was not efficiency or profits" .. oh.. noone here is arguing about that! But we are no longer in the 50s or 60s where the main incentive for PSUs should be job creation.
You say "PSUs were created for self reliance and they have done an excellent job.Today it is due to PSUs that India is making articles ranging from safety pins to spacecrafts" .. erm self sufficient? What are you talking about.. what are we self sufficient in? aircraft? Tanks? guns? not much I see.. even after 60 years of this "self sufficient" PSU bollox!
Before you jump in and say chandrayaan.. ISRO etc etc.. do you know that ISRO gets the components such as sensors etc from the west? If you don't believe me, submit an RFI with them asking them where they got the components from.. you will see companies like "e2v technologies" popup (this is a company in the UK).
The guidance system on the nag missile is imported.
You know why? We don't have any semiconductor fabs in india! THEY HAVE TO BE IMPORTED!
I'm not against PSUs. Quite the contrary. But they like everyone else, including the PM, has to be accountable. This is lacking in our country. In the UK or US, if government employees squander money you think they could get away with it?? Just look at the 2009 expenses scandal in the UK! And that wasn't even "illegal" as such, it was just that they claimed more than necessary. In india, politicians take a cut out of every project they are involved in.
Come to karnataka, I will show you roads that fall apart weeks after they are laid. Is it because indians lack the capability to build a decent road? NO its because the contractor and other middlemen shortchanged it.
PSUs are like that, they are meant to provide jobs which the govt can control.. i.e reserved jobs.. so that they can play their petty vote bank game.
I'm not against PSUs, I'm against INEFFICIENCY at PSUs. Afterall, you should be concerned too, its our tax money.. unless ofcourse you dont pay income tax!
MR. Anon@1:02 PM
You say.. ""Only those candidates who have certain grades qualify for recruitment." .. If you are willing to pay the right amount I can get you a job in the PSU of your choice. I know people. Heck, I know people who have got a high rank in the CET (govt entrance test in karnataka) by bribing the right people. Your lack of knowledge of how things work in india is amazing! I bet you live in the UK or something.
You also say "The rational for creating PSUs was not efficiency or profits" .. oh.. noone here is arguing about that! But we are no longer in the 50s or 60s where the main incentive for PSUs should be job creation.
You say "PSUs were created for self reliance and they have done an excellent job.Today it is due to PSUs that India is making articles ranging from safety pins to spacecrafts" .. erm self sufficient? What are you talking about.. what are we self sufficient in? aircraft? Tanks? guns? not much I see.. even after 60 years of this "self sufficient" PSU bollox!
Before you jump in and say chandrayaan.. ISRO etc etc.. do you know that ISRO gets the components such as sensors etc from the west? If you don't believe me, submit an RFI with them asking them where they got the components from.. you will see companies like "e2v technologies" popup (this is a company in the UK).
The guidance system on the nag missile is imported.
You know why? We don't have any semiconductor fabs in india! THEY HAVE TO BE IMPORTED!
I'm not against PSUs. Quite the contrary. But they like everyone else, including the PM, has to be accountable. This is lacking in our country. In the UK or US, if government employees squander money you think they could get away with it?? Just look at the 2009 expenses scandal in the UK! And that wasn't even "illegal" as such, it was just that they claimed more than necessary. In india, politicians take a cut out of every project they are involved in.
Come to karnataka, I will show you roads that fall apart weeks after they are laid. Is it because indians lack the capability to build a decent road? NO its because the contractor and other middlemen shortchanged it.
PSUs are like that, they are meant to provide jobs which the govt can control.. i.e reserved jobs.. so that they can play their petty vote bank game.
I'm not against PSUs, I'm against INEFFICIENCY at PSUs. Afterall, you should be concerned too, its our tax money.. unless ofcourse you dont pay income tax!
@ChanAkya
Your rant is typical of those who fail to get decent jobs. I know how tough the selection process is bcoz I was involved in recruitment process.There are several bodies and people who handle recruitment of these giant PSUs. If someone has to pay bribes to get a job in one of these mega PSUs then he has to grease the palms of several people and bodies which are involved in the recruitment process.It is quite impossible to get jobs in quality PSUs by paying bribes.What happens at a state level is a different matter. We are talking about these central PSU.
If India is so weak in computers how did it manufacture so many supercomputers? You have not heard of Semi Conductor Lab? here's the link to it's website http://www.scl.gov.in/
There was a PSU making chips for our computers. Fyi even the Russian missiles use Texas Instrument chips, does that mean they get their guidance system from USA? No country will export only the missile guidance system. They may allow sale of parts that are widely available.
Those roads falling apart in Karnataka are built by pvt. contractors.You are barking up the wrong tree mate.I am against these corrupt Indian Pvt companies.
Read the earlier comments. I am rooting for 100% open competition.As far as technologies that are critical for national defense r concerned,they have to be under the control of the Govt.We can't give them to glorified thekedars and baniyas who make money by mixing rat shit with jeera powder.
Reservation based on caste/religion/creed is not the way forward. If they want reservation, it should be based on economics.
If as they keep hawking.. there are more poor people in other castes, then this will show up when you reserve jobs for the poor. Most of them will be from certain categories.
You might be tempted to say, someone will claim to be poor. Well that argument can also be applied to caste based reservations. I know a few people on my street who were poor "upper caste" and they converted to a lower caste(officially), so that their children can get into colleges that were affordable (under reservation).
Are you saying there are no poor brahmins in india? Go to delhi, all the public toilets are manned by the so-called upper class brahmins.
This caste system is an easy way the politicians use to gain votebanks. It will never be eliminated, because if it is, then how can you appease your votebank? It is basically an exploitation system that will forever be present until people wake up to the reality. It is like the economic theory of unemployment used in the west. The theory states that for there to be "growth", there HAS to be a section which is perpetually unemployed. This is so that they can be exploited. Look it up.
If india is to truely develop, everything must be based on merit. Just like it is in the west. There must be accountability. In india, if you have money, you can do anything. Otherwise, no matter what, india will NEVER be anything more than a potential power.
Im not saying everyone who comes to PSUs are stupid. I'm saying the large proportion of people there did not earn it.
If you think PSUs are the be-all and end-all of today (yes they were important at a time, not now).. why did the govt go bankrupt and open up the economy in 1991? This self sufficiency crap is what is told to those with little outside knowledge.
anon@6:59 PM
FYI, I make plenty of money. I do not need to prove my income to you. Lets just say, I work in one of the largest investment companies in the west (the likes of barclays capital, goldman sachs etc). So there is no need for you to talk about my job.
Read carefully what i wrote. THERE IS NO SEMICONDUCTOR FABS in the country! There is a consortium called "Semi-india" (look it up) who want to build one but it has not begun yet.
The supercomputers you are talking about are "assembled". Clearly your knowledge of computers is limited. Even you (if you buy enough components) can build quite a powerful computer at home. This is what india does!
There are no fabs manufacturing microchips in india. This is done by the likes of intel, AMD, TexasInstruments etc etc.. NOT ONE INDIAN company in the world! I worked in fabs before I moved to finance.
Governments are VERY protective of this tech. For instance, the intel fab in china doesnt make CPU chips, only motherboard chips. Big difference between the two. For india to get this tech, what needs to be done is the govt fund fabs by bringing those who have worked in them from the US, UK, Taiwan etc.
You are right. They dont buy the guidance system off the shelf. But they do buy the parts (such as CCD sensors, micro controllers etc). Trust me, I work in the defence related field of investment so I know who is whos customer. If you dont believe me, why dont you just submit an RFI to DRDO asking them where they got their components for the missile guidance from? For instance e2v makes the guidance used in the US trident system (the ICBM). This sort of tech is unavailable here in india.
Regarding PSU jobs, its not as hard as you think. One of my distant cousins got a friend's daughter a job in BARC. She went through the whole interview etc but it was a sham. Its not always about greasing palms. Knowing WHO to grease and who to influence is important. I am surprised indians like you are unaware of the state of corruption in india.
anon@6:59 PM
corruption and dishonesty is an inherent thing in indian psyche. Let me show you a link.. http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5563
Someone from their own group cheated them out of around $6000. And this out of money raised for the well-being of the army! How sick do you have to be do steal from that pot? Does that mean everyone is corrupt? no.
Our country needs an overhaul badly! There is corruption everywhere. From the PM down to the peon.
You say "As far as technologies that are critical for national defense r concerned,they have to be under the control of the Gov".Is this why india has to import 70% of its defence needs? Since independence, this number has barely changed. It will never change unless pvt companies get involved. I'm not saying pvt companies are angels. No sir! They are equally corrupt and will sell their mother just like the babus. They need to be VERY TIGHTLY policed. But that begs the question, who polices them? Because whoever does has to be honest! And in india, even the judiciary is corrupt! This is our main problem, more than the fact that PSUs are lethargic. EVERY single country on this planet that has become or is becoming a powerhouse has accountability built into it, china included. India doesnt. Until this happens, we will always be "developing".
But they, unlike PSUs, have an incentive to build newer, more efficient models. Why? Because otherwise the shareholder will be unhappy. This is why the west has flourished and communism died. China? Well its a bit different. They are controlled strictly and will be executed if there is any mismanagement. Corruption there is mainly at the top, not everywhere as in india.
@anon6:59 PM
Here are some links for you.
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/processors/2007/06/14/india-ramps-up-semiconductor-production-39287548/
"although there are no operational wafer fab plants in the country right now, five fab plants have been proposed, with approved ones targeted to go live between 2009 and 2010."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustan_Semiconductor_Manufacturing_Company
The above is proposed but no incentives from the govt. Fabs are very expensive. The smallest of them will cost atleast $10-15million to just MAINTAIN every year!
http://fabcity.com/
Again, proposed..
http://www.siliconindia.com/shownews/Why_does_India_lack_fabs-nid-57557.html
"According to Patil, the companies are reluctant to invest in fabs in India as it is very expensive and also because of the lack of government initiatives."
http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4087462/Report-India-needs-a-wafer-fab-says-summit-keynoter
(EETIMES is VERY credible, it is one of the journals we reguarly read when I worked in a fab)
"India badly needs a semiconductor fab. Compared to other countries, we have not invested in this area, and at least now, we should seriously think [about it],"
Manufacturing a microprocessor like that of AMD or intel or a CCD like those made by e2v is no joke. These companies have such strict policies for their employees, that they are prevented from passing anything anywhere. For instance, those who work in the doping (to make the chip conductive) are kept separate and noone can access info they have.
So before you go around saying india makes supercomputers, read!
Look at the top500 supercomputers (google it) http://www.top500.org/country/92
That is india's list. Look at the "vendor" column. Do you see any indian company there?
What india does is assemble the components in a certain way. Using VLSI. There is a lot of VLSI knowledge in india (this is circuit design) but there is no fabrication technology. The 2 are equally important but are worlds apart.
Anon at 6:59, on one hand you ask for open competiton, and in the same sentence you ask for crutches like 'technologies for national defence only for government!' This mirrors the defence PSUs and MoD proclaiming how much they welcome private participation and at the same time using every possible excuse behind the scenes to cut them out of the market.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/mod-breaks-its-own-rules-to-favour-its.html
Strangely you ppl have fewer qualms about putting our defence secrets in the hands of FOREIGN PRIVATE SECTOR suppliers.
BTW the PARAM supercomputers are based on IBM Power-PC processors imported from the West.
@Anon 8.57PM
My friend, I am against trying to show someone as less capable.The position for which I was recruited there were only 6 vacancies all over India and half of them were reserved.I got that job thru a tough selection process. I will also confess that the guys and gals who were selected from SC/ST communities were at par or even better than me.
I too held beliefs similar to that expressed by majority of you before I joined a PSU. Now I know no one is inherently backward of forward. Anyone can shine provided he or she gets the right opportunities and environment.I suggest you read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers.
@Gautam
You want your local kiranawala to make atom bombs for India?
And how many pieces of silver did our Shuklaji take from our baniyas to sell the nation?
Those defense secrets are actually the trade secrets of these highly competent Pvt. foreign companies which our nation is paying a huge price to acquire and our local baniyas want them for free.
Can our Infosys, Wipro etc. make those PC processors on their own and compete with IBM processors in the international market? No wonder Infosys is called a Chop Shop.
Anon @ 12.36
There's no point arguing any further against such militant socialism. Can private match up to or surpass PSUs given the same support from government? Past experience suggests YES. And automatically accusing every credible source that goes against you of bribery and vested interests is the most horrible and immature way of making an argument. How about I start accusing you of receiving bribes from BEL?
BTW Colonel Shukla had and still has many contacts within the armed forces and defence industry and is arguably the most credible of Indian defence journalists. I'd rather take his opinion than a bunch of armchair socialists. And here's some information from a SERVING member in case you want to discredit Col Shukla on the basis of being retired.
http://sify.com/news/defence-psus-the-great-betrayal-news-columns-jlnlqyaegfb.html
Let me put the status of the Defence PSUs and DRDO institutes in perspective: They are non-profit, non-commerical institutions that have assured government funding do not have to worry about shareholders and profit margins. They have nothing to gain and nothing to lose from success, failure or delay of defence projects other than pride and credibility, which is moot since having unionised workforce most employees have low chance of being fired for inefficiency.
Contrast private sector defence firms in the West. If they don't meet deadlines they are fined and lose contracts. They have very real chances of going bankrupt and having to lay off employees. All those are great motivators to perform or perish. This is also done in Russia and China to PSUs but can never be done in India because we are a democracy run by votebank politics. This leaves the Western model as the most viable one.
And mr anon @ 12:36AM, since when have Tata, L & T, Bharat Forge and Infosys have been selling kiranas? Keep spewing. Maybe one day when you or one of your family is applying for a job there it'll come back to you.
@anon12:36 AM
Are you daft? Who said we should "privatise" the military? Who said that pvt companies should make atom bombs? That is not even done in the US! We are saying PSUs must be made to compete with pvt sector. If you believe the PSUs are so good, why are you afraid of competition with the pvt sector on equal terms? Not where the competition is rigged so that the PSU wins (as was the case in the Rustom UAV, which BEL/HAL "won"). If you still believe that only PSUs should be involved in the defence sector, there is nothing I can say, you will be a commie till the day you die.
@Gautam, hes a commie bharat-RATshaker. People in WB and Kerala keep voting in commie govts who do nothing but harass and bully others. Communism is like a religion to them, they will follow it even if it kills the country.
This is what these people do, they go around passing opinions as fact. Visit bharat-rakshak forums and see what i mean. They don't rely on peoples experience (which people like Shiv and Ajai have and share). Rather, those who can find the best links and paraphrase sentences are treated as "masters" of the sciences.
The problem is that these ratshakers are like rats, everywhere!
anon6:59 PM
im sorry to dissapoint ur high expectations for psu's. chan is absolutely right. many jobs in big psu's are up for sale. u know how i know this? let me tell u.
i work for one of the best psu in the country, like barc..i wont give u any details because i wnt 2 remain anonymous. i knew certain people who helped me get in touch with others. my father paid 17 lak bribe to 4 people and got my job. i am not proud of it but it feeds me and it will be my source of income till i die. they conducted the interview with 3 people like normal, but 2 of them were paid 4 laks each. i also paid 2 more people 4lak and 5lak each.
one of my friends recently got a promotion to manager by paying someone higher in the chain. and i am helping a close friend get a job at the same place using my contacts. so u see, there is lot of jobs going for the sale. but u have to speak to the right ppl.
i cudnt get any work from pvt companies for nearly 18month, so i had to resort to this. what to do? this is how life in india is.we just accept it and carry on.
but ya not everyone got their job this way.many do it like normal like urself.. but im saying there are alternate ways to get the jobs
Commie Should Die,
You moron do you suffer from dyslexia that you can't read what I have written? I am all for 100% open competition. Why is our Pvt. companies so scared of foreign competition? Why are they not allowing 100% foreign investments in defense sector?
You f**Ktard, it's not the PSUs which is stopping external competition but these corrupt incompetent Pvt. sector companies. What product do they have to offer? They can't make even a fukin decent 2 wheeler and they want to make APCs and fighter jets? LOL!
Where superb vehicles like Humvees and Range Rovers have been found ineffective in combat situations what can these shit companies offer that will be better than Humvees and RRs??
U want our jawans to use TATA Nano or Sumo n Mahendra Jeep in Naxal infested areas?
In case of Rustom BEL/HAL have expertise in this area, what expertise does those competing companies have in UAVs?? Absolutely zilch. Their business model is very simple. STOP ALL FOREIGN COMPETITION IN THE NAME OF "NATIONAL INTEREST".ENTER INTO THE COMPETITION EVEN IF THEY HAVE NO EXPERTISE OR NEVER MANUFACTURED THAT PRODUCT.NEXT GET THE CONTRACT USING POLITICAL CLOUT AND BRIBES.ROPE IN A FOREIGN COMPANY BY WAY OF "JOINT VENTURE", WHICH IS NOTHING BUT CHANGING THE LABEL AND JACKING UP THE PRICE OF THE FINAL PRODUCT.WHO WILL PAY THE ULTIMATE PRICE? IT WILL BE HONEST HARDWORKING TAX PAYERS.LET THERE BE FOREIGN COMPETITORS AND THEN WE WILL SEE WHO WINS THE RACE.
FINALLY PSUs belongs to the citizens of this country, whereas Pvt. companies belong to a family like Tatas, Birlas, Mahendras etc. Security of the country cannot be bartered away to few families. Already the nation's top political party has become a personal property of the Gandhi family.No wonder Rahul is depicted as a "prince of India" even in respected foreign magazines. Did we really get our independence after the British left? Or did we merely replaced the gora sahibs with corrupt despotic brown sahibs?
@Gautam
All these gents whom you are quoting have no experience of Indian Pvt. Cos. They are retired defense personnel who have a haloed opinion about our pvt companies without ever dealing with these companies.I worked in a PSU and worked in several MNCs. I know a lot about these companies than these retired Army and IAF colonels.
My question is simple. What can these companies offer? Do they have anything on the table? Forget that.DO they have any expertise in defense sector? What they are offering is "joint venture" with foreign companies (while stopping them from entering Indian mkt) to deliver the same product that we can get at a cheaper price from the foreign company. In a nutshell they are not even middlemen, but thieves. I am dead against middlemen and thieves. If they have a fantastic product that outclasses anything that defense PSUs and foreign companies can offer, then I am all for Indian Pvt. Companies. I don't see this happening even in the remote future.
@Gautam
What is TATA Star Bazaar? WHat is Reliance Fresh? What is Food Bazaar? What is Big Bazaar? etc. etc.????
Aren't these companies owned by these very companies aspiring to enter defense sector? Sell atta, bhindi, alu, pyaj with ICBMs eh? Very interesting. A new "jugadu" business model which should be discussed as a case study in Harvard. Another Laloo in Harvard.
So here we have a bunch of LMLs(Loud Mouthed Leftists) talking out of both sides of their mouth and ignoring the bitter facts in favour of slinging mud to make an argument. Exactly the way our political parties operate. How quaint.
Private cos opposing foreign investment in defence? What a barefaced lie. Contrary to that they want the foreign investment cap to be raised to make it easier for India to acquire the latest technology.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/05/increase-fdi-in-defence-says-cii-survey.html
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/04/mod-will-block-100-fdi-in-defence.html
And yelling that private cos shouldn't be allowed to participate in defence project based on the grounds that till now they haven't been allowed to participate in defence projects(since defence was opened to the private sector only recently) is a BROKEN argument that makes zero sense.
Besides what is the experience of the DPSUs and Ordinance factories so far? Most of their products over the decades are foreign stuff manufactured under licence. Want to ban them too?
Just like the DPSU and MoD you are spewing contradictory and ridiculous arguments with the ulterior motive of hating on the private sector and nothing else.
Gautam, dont bother replying to them. I cant be bothered. This is the way commies think. They want competition but dont want to allow pvt sector. LOL so who will compete? Another PSU?? LMAO
These guys are from the RATSHAK forum There as well its filled with commies who go around preaching competition but dont want the pvt sector because of "national interest".
Yea commie, so you think LM, Boeing, GE etc etc run by "shareholder" families are all trying to sell the nation. Sure.. why dont you go live in a commie country if you like their policies so much? Oh yeah, there are none because they went bankrupt! Even china is following the capitalist model. So you've decided to "import" communism to kolkatta.. no worries, when other states get richer, the commie model will be dumped, just a matter of time.
Gautam, I wouldnt worry about these RATSHAK commies. They will be around like flies and any difference in opinion wont be tolerated by them. This is how they run their forum. Like pakis.
Just one question to the commie, you say "What product do they have to offer? They can't make even a fukin decent 2 wheeler and they want to make APCs and fighter jets? LOL!" … and so our PSUs can make them?? HAHA you not heard of the saras crash? you not heard about the LCA needing "foreign consultants" ? You not heard of the kaveri needing Russian assistance? oh oh.. wait, what about the Arjun which the army doesnt want but is rammed down its throat because DODO developed it? LMFAO! You're commie culture can never be changed even though the facts on the ground prove otherwise. PSUs are filled with many people like you who fear the loss of your jobs. The smart ones at PSUs wont fear because they will be recruited to pvt companies.
Go back home you ratshaker.
[email protected]
This comment system isn't allowing me to post the whole thing in one go, so will split it.
"You f**Ktard, it's not the PSUs which is stopping external competition but these corrupt incompetent Pvt. sector companies."
HAHAHA read that again.. HAHAHA so you're saying, the pvt sector is not taking part because they are afraid of competition? LMFAO
You obviously have never been around a pvt business. You've been living in commie country for too long.
Let me explain something to you. Pvt companies are there to make money, not for national defence. This is true ALL OVER THE WORLD. Now, these seem to be at odds with each other. So how do you bring them in line? Well, Look at what they US does..
It provides INCENTIVE to pvt companies to develop a new product and then asks for mass production.
The pvt sector not having any experience isn't an excuse. They will gain it over time. Just look at BSNL. It is one of the crappiest companies out there, barely surviving. It was making loads of money when it was a monopoly, now with other companies, they are being forced to compete and bring their prices down and quality up.
There is noone to compete (at present) with HAL/DRDO. If the pvt sector is allowed to flourish, HAL will go down the drain. This is what you commies and PSU unionists are worried about. And those who are worried about this are the morons that work there, not the smart ones. Because the smart ones will be lured with better salaries to pvt companies. Only you morons will be left hanging.
L&T alread has built the hull for the ATV. This is how it starts off, as experiece grows, they can build whole ships/subs. Noone starts off building entire subs.
You say "They can't make even a fukin decent 2 wheeler and they want to make APCs and fighter jets? LOL!" … thats entirely funny.. because what can the PSUs build??
You think the SU30 that rolls out of HAL is made in HAL? Its ASSEMBLED like lego parts there, the parts come from russia.
Where is your LCA? Its been in "development" for 30 years! And still the IAF is not going to order more than 40 of them. Where is your beloved Arjun tank?? Only 248 have been ordered by the army. DRDO claims that it is superior than the T90, maybe it is, maybe its not. But the fact that the army would rather go to Russia shows DRDOs incompetance. What about the kaveri engine? Thats been in the works for 30 years and still no sign of any progress.. so much so they are desperate for foreign help.
[email protected]
This comment system isn't allowing me to post the whole thing in one go, so will split it.
"You f**Ktard, it's not the PSUs which is stopping external competition but these corrupt incompetent Pvt. sector companies."
HAHAHA read that again.. HAHAHA so you're saying, the pvt sector is not taking part because they are afraid of competition? LMFAO
You obviously have never been around a pvt business. You've been living in commie country for too long.
Let me explain something to you. Pvt companies are there to make money, not for national defence. This is true ALL OVER THE WORLD. Now, these seem to be at odds with each other. So how do you bring them in line? Well, Look at what they US does..
It provides INCENTIVE to pvt companies to develop a new product and then asks for mass production.
The pvt sector not having any experience isn't an excuse. They will gain it over time. Just look at BSNL. It is one of the crappiest companies out there, barely surviving. It was making loads of money when it was a monopoly, now with other companies, they are being forced to compete and bring their prices down and quality up.
There is noone to compete (at present) with HAL/DRDO. If the pvt sector is allowed to flourish, HAL will go down the drain. This is what you commies and PSU unionists are worried about. And those who are worried about this are the morons that work there, not the smart ones. Because the smart ones will be lured with better salaries to pvt companies. Only you morons will be left hanging.
L&T alread has built the hull for the ATV. This is how it starts off, as experiece grows, they can build whole ships/subs. Noone starts off building entire subs.
You say "They can't make even a fukin decent 2 wheeler and they want to make APCs and fighter jets? LOL!" … thats entirely funny.. because what can the PSUs build??
You think the SU30 that rolls out of HAL is made in HAL? Its ASSEMBLED like lego parts there, the parts come from russia.
Where is your LCA? Its been in "development" for 30 years! And still the IAF is not going to order more than 40 of them. Where is your beloved Arjun tank?? Only 248 have been ordered by the army. DRDO claims that it is superior than the T90, maybe it is, maybe its not. But the fact that the army would rather go to Russia shows DRDOs incompetance. What about the kaveri engine? Thats been in the works for 30 years and still no sign of any progress.. so much so they are desperate for foreign help.
[email protected]
PART2
Name one product that has been INDIGENOUS mass produces (other than insas) by HAL/DRDO? The pinaka is a pvt sector development, look at how the army loves it.
The forces would rather import than buy anything from the HAL/DRDO because they are all of low quality. Dhruv, the supposed success, even that HAL wont fix the issues with it. Read Shivs entry on the CAG report for more info.
Oh.. want to talk about the "shakti" engine used in the dhruv? Its indian in name only. HAL claimed they had TOT for it. If they did and "learnt" something from the collaboration, why are they begging snecma for help to integrate it with the LUH?
ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/07/hal-confronts-snecma-in-light.html
"HAL had paid Turbomeca to develop the Shakti engine for the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH)".
You want to talk non-defence? What about AIR INDIA? The crappiest airline in the world. They are making such huge losses that the govt is finding it harder and harder to fund them. The pvt players are pushing them out of the scene. Oh and have you ever been on that crap airline? I've travelled between kuwait and bombay, and I will NEVER fly with them again. Their stewards are disrespectful to passengers and the shabbiest of airlines. There were something like stethoscopes for headphones (cos they were afraid people would steal them).
It doesnt matter what you commies think. Because the facts prove otherwise. PVT sector will provide better equipment than any DRDO HAL can. The other fact is, the pvt sector WILL EVENTUALLY replace HAL in making things because by hook or crook they will make sure it happens. They are already forcing the MOD to change its policies. I would give PSU at most another decade or two before they are forced to reinvent themselves just like BSNL did.
ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/08/you-got-it-now-deserve-it.html
The only people who need worry about this is the morons in PSUs like yourself. If you are really smart, then you need not worry because you will be headhunted by the pvt sector. But if you are the moron i think you are, then well..keep fighting like a commie.
You are a commie, be a commie till you die. Go back to WB or kerala (the states with the least growth) in india where you can live with your brother commie brothers. Online, there is a place called bharat-RATshak which harbour many commies like you. You will find shelter there.
Anon @ 9:48, your comment on private sector having no experience boggles the mind. Of course they have no experience, they were legally banned from the defence sector until now! If you use that as a criteria then the DRDO/DPSUs/Ordiancen Factories will keep winning domestic tenders forever on the basis that only they have been awarded past tenders, a paradoxical situation. The point between allowing private sector involvement was to introduce diversity and competition in the domestic defence market.
And finally our private sector is extremely resourceful. What they lack in experience they can make up for with flexibility and ingenuity. Just look at the telecom and airline sectors. Why are Air India and BSNL rapidly losing market share and begging for government handouts even after many decades of "experience" while new private cos dominate within a few years of de-regularising these sectors? Our Communist MoD is probably worrying that the defence PSUs will meet the same fate.
"Already the nation's top political party has become a personal property of the Gandhi family.No wonder Rahul is depicted as a "prince of India" even in respected foreign magazines."
You bumhole, Didnt you vote congress? Yeah.. so hes your laddie.. go shack up with him in your ratshak hole. You commies are all the same.. soon you will be wiped out.
Hey commie.. heres something you might want to think about.
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2010/08/top-hal-source-emails-tarmak007-with.html
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Tarmak007: Is it true that the 'one particular department' is playing the 'dirty games' in delaying procurement? Please explain.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Yes
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CAG: Concerted efforts are needed to achieve the desired (50 per cent) level of indigenisation.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Not possible for another 10 years.
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CAG: As the Company has entered the highly competitive civilian/ export markets the design/quality issues need to be resolved early to gain the confidence of the customers to remain in the market.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Yes
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CAG: As against the envisaged indigenisation level of 50 per cent, about 90 per cent of the value of material used in each helicopter is procured from foreign suppliers.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: HAL cannot make everything as it is not economically prudent. The civil industry has not come of age in India. Globally too, no company makes all components.
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So there you go, from the horses mouth. HAL admits it cant do everything and is using 90% of parts from international sources. So much for your PSU-best-thing-for-india bullcrap!
They also say to achieve 50% localisation, it will take atleast another 10 years. LMAO so after 40-50 years, they can only achieve 50% indigenisation? yeah GOOOO PSU, NOT!
Looks like your commie model has broken down, oh wait, it broke down 20 years ago! But you're still living the dream eh, RATshak boy?
RATShakers are COMMMIES,
Even more damning is that HAL has been unable to properly leverage the lower cost of Indian labour and tooling and HAL-built Su-30s cost as much as, or even more than wholly imported Russian ones!
If all the components are going to be foreign and the result will only be assembled in India, then we might as well give that jobs to dozens of private players who can do it more economically!
Why is the civil industry not 'come of age'? Because of HAL's own opposition to the entry of private players!
@Gautam
Pls read carefully even CII is having mixed opinion about 100% foreign investment in defense sector.Whereas FICCI is totally against raising the current cap of 24% FDI in defense sector. So these cunning Indian companies are saying one thing in one group and pulling back covertly the same scheme thru another trade body. You and ur favorite Shuklaji has very conveniently covered up opposition from FICCI. SO much for pvt sector being open to foreign competition.
We are going gaga over these incompetent pvt. Cos in defense sector. But when it comes to putting our money why M&M and Tata are not the 1st choice? U want these companies that u don't trust to develop vehicles that will protect the lives of our officers and soldiers? I hope educated ppl like u show more maturity. We are not talking about driving a car in a civilian env (here too u don't trust them), but in a hostile env where there are no roads and ground full of mines and enemies armed with RPGs etc.
Humvees and Range Rover have failed in such env. Can our Pvt Cos develop something better?
@Gautam and Ratshaggger
USA awards incentives to companies who have excellent track record in building state of the art weapons system. They won't give incentives or several million $ to a atta chakki wala to develop 5th Gen Fighters.This is the biggest drawback of pvt. companies. You may say that they don't have any expertise in this area. Well what we are asking them is to take the product that they developed expertise in and modify that to use it for defense purposes.History is replete with such examples. Rolls Royce cars were converted as armored cars. We are talking about the same concept. Why are they stopping open competition?
As far as indigenisation is concerned even GM outsources products to Bharat Forge and Sundaram Fastners. If you build 100% inhouse it will require astronomical infrastructure jacking up the final cost of the product.It's prudent to build the critical components inhouse and only source those components that are widely available. HAL is doing the same thing.Su30 costs r higher bcoz u also have to acquire the machinery n train staff to build those ACs 100% indigenously. If it was assembling a lego set as claimed by RATSHAGGER, cost will be lower than made in Russia Su30. Here we want to develop indigenous capabilities hence we r paying extra towards that end.
PSUs hv successes that will pale the pvt companies. PSUs hv expertise in building satellites, rockets,jets, helicopters, tanks, Supercomputers etc. Pvt Cos. r way behind. They are struggling to mkt their crappy cars n bike against stiff foreign competition. They want to enter defense sector as they want an insurance against losses in civilian mkt.
Almost all the pvt companies r making losses in insurance, banking, automobile etc. WHereas so called PSUs r having a monopoly even in open competition. If u don't know ICICI, IDBI etc. were PSUs. Finally the refrain that pvt companies have no exp is no excuse as the venerable Glock started as curtain rod manufacturers. No Govt helped them to start manufacturing automatic pistols which are used by almost all armed forces. If Pvt. companies want to enter defense sector, they hv to do that on their own strengths and not Govt handouts , against open competition.
@Gautam and Ratshagger
USA awards incentives to companies who have excellent track record in building state of the art weapons system. They won't give incentives or several million $ to a atta chakki wala to develop 5th Gen Fighters.This is the biggest drawback of Indian pvt. companies. You may say that they don't have any expertise in this area.Neither did Glock when they switched from making curtain rods to automatics.They didn't get any Govt help.Why are our Pvt. Cos against open competition?
As far as indigenisation is concerned even GM outsources products to Bharat Forge and Sundaram Fastners. If you build 100% inhouse it will require astronomical infrastructure jacking up the final cost of the product.It's prudent to build the critical components inhouse and only source those components that are widely available. HAL is doing the same thing.Su30 costs r higher bcoz they have to acquire the machinery n train staff to build those ACs 100% indigenously. If it was assembling like a lego set as claimed by RATSHAGGER, cost will be lower than made in Russia Su30.
PSUs successes that will pale the pvt companies. PSUs hv expertise in building giant mining n earth moving eqp,satellites, rockets, jets, helicopters, tanks, Supercomputers etc. Pvt Cos. r way behind. They are struggling to mkt their crappy cars n bikes against stiff foreign competition. They want to enter defense sector to shield them from the losses in civilian mkt.
Almost all the pvt companies r making losses in insurance, banking, automobile etc. WHereas PSUs r thriving in openly competitive mkt. If u don't know ICICI, IDBI etc. were PSUs.
If Pvt. companies want to enter defense sector, they hv to compete on their own strengths and not with Govt handouts.
@anon 10.02pm
"U want these companies that u don't trust to develop vehicles that will protect the lives of our officers and soldiers?"
I don't think the PSUs and the GOI are any better. The govt is feeding them expired food, and HAL/DODO are providing them choppers that don't comply to international safety standards. The IAF doesnt want the LCA in large numbers because it is "obsolete" and "underpowered". The army doesn't want the Arjun.
When this is the case, could the pvt companies be worse? I think not.
@Anon 11.01 PM
Well if you complain that Dhruv doesn't complies with international safety stds. then you are implying that MBB Kawasaki BK117, which has been flying since 1982, also doesn't complies with international safety std?You may not be aware Dhruv,Lakota, Eurocopter is based on BK117.
IAF is waiting for more advanced MKII and the very same IAF has found Tejas to be a superior fighter than Mirage 2000.
Army doesn't want superior Arjun (based on one time world's best tank aka Leopard 2A4) bcoz they won't get any kickbacks from DRDO which they got from Russia with T90 acquisitions. No wonder DRDO had to install a blackbox to stop Army from destabilizing the tank during tests.
How many of these Pvt. Cos pay taxes and regularly pay employee PFs? Why these top businessmen don't figure in the top income tax payers list?
anon 12:31 AM
You are reiterating my point!
If the IAF dont want the LCA (mk1) and wait for mk2 instead and Army dont want the Arjun (for kickback reasons), then why should we fund the DRDO? Their products wont be inducted anyway, if not for quality issues then because the babus wont get kickbacks.
Atleast if the private players are involved, the babus will continue to get their kickbacks AND indigenous products will start to appear.
Do you see what I'm saying?
anon@10:44 PM
"Almost all the pvt companies r making losses in insurance, banking, automobile etc. WHereas PSUs r thriving in openly competitive mkt. If u don't know ICICI, IDBI etc. were PSUs."
erm.. where are you getting your facts from? all pvt companies are making losses? Maybe you are speaking of A private company or A quarter in which some companies made losses. But your statement is utterly false!
ICICI was NEVER a PSU. It was setup as a collaboration between the govt and private investors with the help of the world bank.
Please get your facts straight.
More importantly, this pvt vs public debate is missing the whole point of pvt sector involvement.
PVT sector will bring in fresh blood and efficiency into the market. It will help things be developed, designed and made locally. PSUs cannot do this. 60 years after independence, we still rely on foreign goods. No matter how you look at it, PSUs dont have what it takes to bring high technology to india.
PVT players on the other hand, will get it somehow, including aquisition of foreign companies.
The whole point of allowing pvt players is to make india LESS dependent on americans, russians, israelis etc etc
Arguing that PSUs will be able to do this alone is fools gold. Believe what you want, but this is the bottom line.
Anon@10:33, once again you are riffing on private sector using half-truths and hypocricy. The defence PSUs have only survived because of government handouts and favourtism. All those achievements you tout are only there because private sector was not encouraged by government to develop competitive products.
You know perfectly well that if Tata, Mahindra or L & T were encouraged, Narendra Modi-style, to start up aerospace companies today then within ten years they'd run circles around DRDO simply by having the kind of flexibility that DRDO and the DPSUs lack, like mass-recruiting IITians with attractive packages, finding and hiring foreign experts and consultants to develop competency, and poaching the best talent(which they already do, except for non-defence related purposes) from DRDO and DPSUs that have hitherto been unable to do their best due to mismanagement, bureaucracy and lack of government incentives.
And you, anon @10:35, are the only person who doesn't trust the private sector. I personally trust the likes of Tata and L & T infinitely more than monopoly-hungering union-driven organisations like GTRE, BEL and the Ordinance Factories.
For an example of the inflexibility of Indian defence PSUs, there are thousands of laid-off ex-Soviet as well as Western defence scientists from the 90s. Even today layoffs continue with defence/aerospace firms shutting down or downsizing due to economy(recently Airbus sacked 10000 employees). Now this is a golden opportunity for our defence industry to add talent for our foreign programmes: China and even Iran hire hundreds of foreign scientists and engineers for their projects.
But no, DRDO won't hire any because they don't have the budgetary allocations for the higher pay packages and benefits such people would demand. But if it were Infosys or Tata they'd run around the world hiring such people to head their programmes. You may call this 'foreign' but it would be far more efficient than waiting for Indian scientists with little prior experience to mature, the products would still be Indian and over time the expertise would be transferred to Indian scientists working with these foreign experts.
@Gautam, good point. This reminds me of how the US developed its space/missile program.
After WW2, Russia andn US went huntinf for nazi scientists to work on their own programs. Indians seem to think if knowledge comes from foreigners it wont be "indian". This is PSU thinking.. becuase their sole purpose is to keep their jobs till they die and pass it on to their children.
They have forgotten that the purpose is to bring new technology to india.
PSU have been useless till now, none of what they have made has been inducted in large numbers for whatever reason. The Arjun, LCA etc are all examples. If not for quality reasons, then kickback reasons. Eitherway, these PSU are contributing nothing but employment to our countr.
We can do without them and will be better off with pvt companies.,
To those who are preaching for more PSU power, read this:
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/hal-sitara-trainer-to-miss-ioc-deadline.html
Another example of the utter uselessness of PSUs and the morons who work there.
"jet trainer won't achieve initial operational clearance/capability (IOC) by the end of this year as planned."
ok.. fine.. delays do happen… but
"report detailing fresh problems with the aircraft noticed during hot-weather trials held in Rajasthan in May this year, was received by the Air HQ on the morning of August 12"
LOL even after 60 years, they cannot make a simple trainer aircraft. And that too this is just the aircraft, not even the engine!
If we dont allow pvt sector in, these PSUs will still be developing the LCA and MCA 100 years from now..
Hopefully they will die soon and all those who work there will move on in life,
Anon @ 3:41PM,
What will happen is the same thing that's been happening for 50+ years. The guys working on these projects will retire and collect pension without ever doing anything worthwhile in their lives and the next generation of DRDO scientists will work on the same projects with the same level of dedication and IAF will keep importing foreign stuff to compensate. Ad infineum.
@Gautam
All I want is that Indian Pvt. Cos make a world class product.
Our ISRO, DRDO and HAL have already proved they can deliver world class products (no matter whatever the skeptics might say). How did they manage to build a nuke sub, ICBMs, satellites etc.? Why is EADS and BAE so keen to partner with these PSUs and desperately looking for ways to dump their JVs with Pvt Companies??
Fact is these Indian companies are still in the stage of infancy. It will be foolish to handover complete projects. DRDO must conduct an audit with an impartial consultant like BCG or Mckenzie to know the strengths of these Pvt companies. On the basis of such findings DRDO can sublet parts of the project to pvt companies. Over a period of time some of these Pvt companies will gain enough capabilities to develop complete systems and compete not only in India but in the international mkt. Currently awarding them entire contracts will result in big corruption and lead to more harm than good. Everyone will be the loser including our Army.
Anon @ 1:50AM,
Do you know who is it that developed the launch vehicles and satellites for NASA's space programs? Not NASA itself. It was private contractors like Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Also, ever heard of the X-prize? All it took was support and financial incentives from the government for dozens of small private start-ups with no experience to develop advanced aerospace technologies from scratch.
PSUs can never match the resourcefulness of the private sector. If you give Tata the same budget as the DRDO gets for its guided missile program they will have an ICBM ready in 5 years. If you award Godrej a contract to build launch vehicles they will oblige faster and cheapter than ISRO itself(as it is they already manufacture major components).
@Gautam
We did outsource development of several components for Agni II to Pvt Cos. It's these products from Pvt Cos that lead to Agni II failure. Again 1st let them build a decent world class truck, bus or car and then talk about building satellites and jets. How many patents have been filed by Tata and Godrej?
X prize was won by quasi rocket/plane hybrid.
Boeing and Lockheed don't build entire rockets. Fyi it was Dr. Wernher Von Braun who was the father of American space prog. Not Boeing or Lockheed.
Only very recently SpaceX of Elon Musk is building and launching complete rockets. It's neither Boeing nor Lockheed.
Btw, Lockheed and Boeing are Aerospace Companies. What exp Tata or Godrej have in Aerospace? You want manufacturer of toiletries to build satellite launch vehicles? By this logic even Seth Dharamdas of Laxmi Chini Mill will also demand that he be given "funds" for development of satellites and spacecrafts.
@Gautam
We did outsource development of several components for Agni II to Pvt Cos. It's these products from Pvt Cos that lead to Agni II failure. Again 1st let them build a decent world class truck, bus or car and then talk about building satellites and jets. How many patents have been filed by Tata and Godrej?
X prize was won by quasi rocket/plane hybrid.
Boeing and Lockheed don't build entire rockets. Fyi it was Dr. Wernher Von Braun who was the father of American space prog. Not Boeing or Lockheed.
Only very recently SpaceX of Elon Musk is building and launching complete rockets. It's neither Boeing nor Lockheed.
Btw, Lockheed and Boeing are Aerospace Companies. What exp Tata or Godrej have in Aerospace? You want manufacturer of toiletries to build satellite launch vehicles? By this logic even Seth Dharamdas of Laxmi Chini Mill will also demand that he be given "funds" for development of satellites and spacecrafts.
@Gautam X Prize competition is a purely private venture. Both the participants and organizers and finding the prog from their own resources. Richard Branson and Paul Allen are some of the famous participants. US govt has no role. In fact this prog came up due to the frustration of Pvt players with slow growth of space progs in NASA which is under the control of US govt. Can our Tatas and Godrejs let alone Birlas, Mahendras etc. fund such non profit projects?
Anon @ 10.4 and 10.10,
Your arguments are inherently broken. In one line you admit that people with zero experience(even perfume makers!) have built spacecraft and in the next you repeat the old crap about 'Tata past experience not allowed! So don't allow future experience either! PSU monopoly jai ho!' You might as well preach to restore MTNL and Air India's monopoliess as well since they were trounced by upstart private players also with zero experience.
@Gautam
People with no past exp have developed state of the art systems like Glock who used to manufacture curtain rods, and then they used their products to compete in the arms mkt. Not like our Indian Pvt Cos which don't have any exp or products and want the Govt to fund their so called participation in defense sector? 1st let them develop a weapons system on their own and then compete with PSUs, foreign firms and other Indian Pvt Cos. If their product defeats all these competititors, then certainly our Pvt companies do deserve to be aided and funded for further development of weapons systems. Otherwise they will be another bunch of middlemen chasing defense contracts without bringing anything on the table. Study these Indian companies carefully even in civilian mkt they act as middlemen. Their modus operandi is stop foreign competition, get third class vintage products from abroad and pass it as their own products at inflated prices, ask the ordinary Indians to cough out the moolah for building such shit stuff by way of shares, employ cheap enggs and labor to manufacture their rubbish and in the end make a tidy profit. In a nutshell the product or tech is not theirs, capital is not theirs, labor is not theirs only the king sized profit is theirs as they are having more than 50% share without paying a dime and they have a monopoly over the mkt by greasing the palms of babus and netas in the name of "protecting Indian mkt from foreign competition".
@Gautam
Elon Musk is not a perfume maker. He was the founder of Paypal. He founded Tesla (electric car company) and SpaceX with the millions he earned by selling his stake in Paypal.
Anon @ 5:45,
I see you are another poster with a socialist bias. I have already posted some of the achievements of the private sector in this section. What do PSUs have to offer that's comparable? The Indian taxpaying consumer did not turn away from Air India and MTNL because Jet Airways and Airtel bribes them. They have nothing but themselves to blame.
And while you spitefully groan about the private sector's apparent corruption and licence-building of foreign developments, where exactly does the Indian government stand on that? There's the story of the GTRE official that got busted for misappropriating crores of research funds, and that of the DRDO senior official who got caught taking bribes for manipulating selection of bulletproof vests for jawans. Then there's the fact that most of HAL, BEL and the Ordinance Factories' products are licence-built foreign items. You can't ignore one and point fingers at the other. The fact that you did exposes your ulterior motives and selective bias.
Developing a foreign design is an excellent first step for the private sector. At least it's better than the supposed 'indigenous' Dhruv and LCA that have majority imported components.
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Shut down these PSUs and put these babus out on the street.
If the military helicopters are not designed to withstand extreme maneuvers then what exactly are the designed for? Isnt that the whole purpose of a military grade “Light Utility Helicopter”? Its become a HAL practice to overturn a design deficient into pilot error.
It put a serious question mark on our whole indigenisation program. What is the point of wasting so much time and effort on a public enterprise like HAL that produces a very minimally indigenous subpar quality basic design military hardware taking abnormally long time to induct and operationalize putting the defense preparedness at risk.
My personally opinion is that HAL is done deal, we need to cut it loose. And indigenisation shouldnt come at the cost of military preparedness. We need to pursue a more vigorous privatization option.