Wow, woke up and read this news as the first thing in the morning. It surely made my day! We are truly becoming a superpower at last. Just look at the news of massive modernisations,huge growth in exports and an rapidly rising economy. World here we come!
What will be the guarantee that the: that delivery will be on time?
that the cost will not escalate because of wrong prior miscalculations?
that engine will burn out like a cheap car engine?
— In today's political landscape , china and russia are the bullies. Do we need to give a bully nation like russia so much strategic power over India's future even it has repeatedly broken our trust. this news is truly disgusting . this is height of spineless.
"If you dont get angry at injustice then you dont deserve to be called men" – Shivaji
I noticed a funny thing …..Later a P5 member is visiting India in 2010,more is the amount of deal they are signing with India.Lowest UK…USA…..France….China …..Russia Highest
let's hope they don't increase the cost to (after pocketing 30 billion $ and giving 1 bn $ as kickback to babu-neta-sipahis) 90 billion $ when it comes to delivery stating rise in unexpected expenditure.
This is a biggest order ever from India to Russia. And Indians would be stupid to not put one rider (although verbal) to get thermo nuclear bomb prints. That way we are protected for ever. Putin should be bribed, every damn trick should be used to get us these thermo nuke blue prints, just as we got cryo engine blue prints from Russia (the only country that would-can comply with us).
I don't understand why government is spending such a blasphemous amount on aircrafts while our ground soldiers- the real responders of wars, languish with substandard weapons… Even if 1/10th of d amount is spend on equipping and training our ground soldiers and special forces india would have become a military might by now…
Lets the Pakis come, but unlike P5 who have some goods to offer in exchange for the Indian money, the Pakis come here with their begging bowl only to offer more bomb blasts.
I wish our gov't will pool in that amount of money into our own research program……They would have hired the best that amt of money, they would have set up our own infrastructure. It takes guts!!! Will to do!!!…I wish out gov't had the courage to do!!!
Ok now if we were to attempt to make an aircraft like this ourselves god knows how many eons it would take! Investment in house research is essential however, we need 5th gen fighters & neeed them fast. There is NO harm whatsoever in asking for help or collaborating, as in this case, to get things done even if it means sacrificing a bit of our own R&D.
Even if we put this money into the AMCA it would take atleast 10 yrs + for the first flight judging by the LCAs pace. Time we dont have!
This time the Russians to have allot at stake (unlike the Gorskov-Mig deal). The Russians know they have allot riding on this themselves. ' The question of us getting cheated does not arise as in previous occasions.
Yet another example of disinformation being put out by reporters who 'assume' at face value the statements attributed to MoD officials. NO ONE as yet has officially committed to procuring any fixed numbers of the FGFA. That's how the MoD functions. Unless and until the India-specific FGFA prototypes are developed, no one will be able to give an accurate number for the orders to be placed. That's why even the Russians have yet to commit themselves to acquiring a specified number of T-50 PAK-FAs. The 'projected' numbers of FGFAs to be procured, as per the IAF's long-term perspective projections, does not exceed 150 as of now. Consequently, the figure of US$30 billion being quoted for the FGFA programme is totally erroneous. Secondly, the T-50 PAK-FA will not be the FGFA. The FGFA will be lighter and a tandem-seat MRCA, with a far higher quantum of composites-based fuselage sub-structures than is the case with the T-50 PAK-FA. A mere visual examination of the extensive rivetting on the T-50 PAK-FA and comparing it with those on the Tejas LCA will reveal exactly what the IAF wants and what Indian aerospace industry can provide for the FGFA.
Must not forget that HAL is also developing its own 5th Gen fighter which will be ready by 2017. Let us assume escalations cost another 2yrs, in that case 2019 would be the yr when the Indian 5th Gen FGFA would be inducted. With Su-T50 PAK FAs beginning induction by 2017,we'd become a potent force by 2020. Atleast fighting a two front war with 56 Squadrons can now become a reality.
" A mere visual examination of the extensive rivetting on the T-50 PAK-FA and comparing it with those on the Tejas LCA " Mr.Sengupta, can u elaborate a little ?
To Ashish [email protected]: HAL is not developing its own 5th Gen fighter. HAL will design only 30% of the FGFA, with the Sukhoi OKB doing the rest. Both the former CMD of HAL and former CAS of the IAF have stated this on record, and all these have been reproduced in LIVEFIST as well in the past. And pray stop having wet-dreams about India being able to fight a two-front war (limited or all-out?) as even the US till this day (after World War-2) has been unable to wage two-front warfare.
To [email protected]: A picture is worth a thousand words. Try studying the photos of the airframe of the T-50 PAK-FA and Tejas Mk1 and the obvious will become visible.
Gautam, development of 25-30% of the FGFA is a lot! BTW, what makes you think the Indians will get to do any development in the F-35 other than manufacture under ToT (say) devices to measure the tyre pressure? How do you suppose the Indians can afford 250-300 F-35's and what's the great pride in having an "iffy" sanction prone a/c?
Prasun is partially correct in stating "Secondly, the T-50 PAK-FA will not be the FGFA. The FGFA will be lighter and a tandem-seat MRCA, with a far higher quantum of composites-based fuselage sub-structures than is the case with the T-50 PAK-FA."
Its gonna take 4 years to fit a new engine on the LCA Mk2 after which it'll be inducted only by 2017. If anyone things we can build the AMCA and have it inducted by 2020, they're living in wonderland!
Ideally we should have 2 agencies coming up with 2 different versions of the AMCA and choose the best one (like the Amercians & Russians did). But that wont work in India's current defence industry setup.
The FGFA will essentially just be a 2-seat version of PAK-FA with some Indian electronics. All the principal work such as general design, stealth shaping, radar absorbent materials, composite materials, engines, radar, weapon systems and even cockpit MFDs and helmet-mounted displays are already being developed by Russia.
The FGFA, from reports, will only have an Indian mission computer, communication system, navigation system, EW system and maybe some of the composite components. Most of these we can already get implemented on the F-35 for an Indianised 'F-35I' if we sign up as a development partner. Similar to the deal Israel is getting to integrate its own avionics. Heck, we're already using Indian components for mission computers, cockpits and EW systems for upgrade programs like the MiG-23 and Mirage-2000.
And for an order of 200+ F-35s the Americans will most certainly offer local production. Only they won't transfer their stealth technology, but they're not doing that for anyone else, and what's to say the Russians won't offer degraded stealth for the FGFA which is the 'export version' of PAK-FA?
Gautam, what's "degraded stealth"? Going a bit deeper, what in your opinion are the different types of stealth? Could you defend "And for an order of 200+ F-35s the Americans will most certainly offer local production."? Are you certain of "Most of these we can already get implemented on the F-35 for an Indianised 'F-35I' if we sign up as a development partner." IMVHO, If India joins the F-35 "development", it'll be relegated to the third-class compartment.
It's not a great leap of logic for India to get local production when the UK and other countries like Japan have been getting the same from the US for decades with much smaller orders.
And I'm not speaking without precedent. Israel's already got that kind of deal, though you repeatedly ignore my mention of it to continue your own argument.
Buying 2-3 squadrons of F-35 B/C's for the Indian Navy will make sense. The only replacement for the SHAR's is another STOVL a/c. Mig 29 K's are pretty good a/c's and could help add to the "punch" carried by the Indian carrier fighter groups. However, once they retire (one way or the other), the SHAR's absence will be sorely felt operationally. Thus the need to procure F-35 B/C's.
@Gautam: It's a great leap of logic to compare Indian with the UK and Israel. I'm not ignoring your argument. It's just that you have no logic underlying your "arguments". Sorry if I sound rude. The best way around is to use the FGFA deal to have a footing in the design and development of the technology of 5th generation a/c and buy 2-3 (or even more) squadrons of F-35's to fill the imminent operational gap which will be caused by the pensioning off of the IN SHAR's. BTW, you haven't answered my questions raised at 2:39 PM!
They know how to rob us again n again !!!
let's not count our chickens before they hatch…….USA will do everything to stop the deal from being signed, by offering india the lollypop of F-35.
let the deal be signed first & then make news about it….
Also 250 is too small a number, india needs atleast 400 fifth generation fighters to counter china….
lastly….. let's celebrate indo-russian friendship with a deal on the Brahmos-II hypersonic version of the missile….
Russia zindabad !!!!
Wow, woke up and read this news as the first thing in the morning. It surely made my day! We are truly becoming a superpower at last. Just look at the news of massive modernisations,huge growth in exports and an rapidly rising economy. World here we come!
A long awaited good news. We will have the ultimate a/c in the air, before the unmanned aircrafts takes fully to the skies.
Albeit I feel that the unmanned a/c's will only be be better bombers than the fighters.
As it may remain unchallenged in the skies for long, I hope India targets to purchase more and more of these SUT-50/FGFA a/c's.
@ india defence forum: ab aa hi gaye ho to ek baari india zindabad bhi bol do.. 🙂
A great deal.
Hopefully they wont pull off another Gorshkov on us.
What will be the guarantee that the:
that delivery will be on time?
that the cost will not escalate because of wrong prior miscalculations?
that engine will burn out like a cheap car engine?
— In today's political landscape , china and russia are the bullies. Do we need to give a bully nation like russia so much strategic power over India's future even it has repeatedly broken our trust. this news is truly disgusting . this is height of spineless.
"If you dont get angry at injustice then you dont deserve to be called men" – Shivaji
I noticed a funny thing …..Later a P5 member is visiting India in 2010,more is the amount of deal they are signing with India.Lowest UK…USA…..France….China …..Russia Highest
let's hope they don't increase the cost to (after pocketing 30 billion $ and giving 1 bn $ as kickback to babu-neta-sipahis) 90 billion $ when it comes to delivery stating rise in unexpected expenditure.
mathi man ..i totally agree with you ….
This is a biggest order ever from India to Russia. And Indians would be stupid to not put one rider (although verbal) to get thermo nuclear bomb prints. That way we are protected for ever. Putin should be bribed, every damn trick should be used to get us these thermo nuke blue prints, just as we got cryo engine blue prints from Russia (the only country that would-can comply with us).
I don't understand why government is spending such a blasphemous amount on aircrafts while our ground soldiers- the real responders of wars, languish with substandard weapons… Even if 1/10th of d amount is spend on equipping and training our ground soldiers and special forces india would have become a military might by now…
@Anurag How if a non-P5 member Pakistan comes next??? LOLZZZ…!
@Chirayu
Lets the Pakis come, but unlike P5 who have some goods to offer in exchange for the Indian money, the Pakis come here with their begging bowl only to offer more bomb blasts.
I wish our gov't will pool in that amount of money into our own research program……They would have hired the best that amt of money, they would have set up our own infrastructure. It takes guts!!! Will to do!!!…I wish out gov't had the courage to do!!!
@ keshto
How many rules would the 2 of us be braking? 😛
If we are unable to use the suitable similar technologies from T-50 on our AMCA, then no one else should be blamed. It will be our own fault.
How many rules would the 2 of us be braking?
Rules are petty, I would love to break the laws on what I proposed 😉
@ keshto lol!
Ok now if we were to attempt to make an aircraft like this ourselves god knows how many eons it would take!
Investment in house research is essential however, we need 5th gen fighters & neeed them fast.
There is NO harm whatsoever in asking for help or collaborating, as in this case, to get things done even if it means sacrificing a bit of our own R&D.
Even if we put this money into the AMCA it would take atleast 10 yrs + for the first flight judging by the LCAs pace.
Time we dont have!
This time the Russians to have allot at stake (unlike the Gorskov-Mig deal).
The Russians know they have allot riding on this themselves. '
The question of us getting cheated does not arise as in previous occasions.
Yet another example of disinformation being put out by reporters who 'assume' at face value the statements attributed to MoD officials. NO ONE as yet has officially committed to procuring any fixed numbers of the FGFA. That's how the MoD functions. Unless and until the India-specific FGFA prototypes are developed, no one will be able to give an accurate number for the orders to be placed. That's why even the Russians have yet to commit themselves to acquiring a specified number of T-50 PAK-FAs. The 'projected' numbers of FGFAs to be procured, as per the IAF's long-term perspective projections, does not exceed 150 as of now. Consequently, the figure of US$30 billion being quoted for the FGFA programme is totally erroneous.
Secondly, the T-50 PAK-FA will not be the FGFA. The FGFA will be lighter and a tandem-seat MRCA, with a far higher quantum of composites-based fuselage sub-structures than is the case with the T-50 PAK-FA. A mere visual examination of the extensive rivetting on the T-50 PAK-FA and comparing it with those on the Tejas LCA will reveal exactly what the IAF wants and what Indian aerospace industry can provide for the FGFA.
Must not forget that HAL is also developing its own 5th Gen fighter which will be ready by 2017.
Let us assume escalations cost another 2yrs, in that case 2019 would be the yr when the Indian 5th Gen FGFA would be inducted.
With Su-T50 PAK FAs beginning induction by 2017,we'd become a potent force by 2020.
Atleast fighting a two front war with 56 Squadrons can now become a reality.
How stupid we must be to keep buying Russian crap and keep getting ripped off by the Russia, a nation of criminals, racists and useless drunks.
" A mere visual examination of the extensive rivetting on the T-50 PAK-FA and comparing it with those on the Tejas LCA " Mr.Sengupta, can u elaborate a little ?
I dont understand the skepticism. Russia is the only country which shares upto date technologies with us.
We have had issues in the past, we may have issues in the future.
If you remember the Gorshkov, dont forget the Brahmos, Su-30MKI, etc.
To Ashish [email protected]: HAL is not developing its own 5th Gen fighter. HAL will design only 30% of the FGFA, with the Sukhoi OKB doing the rest. Both the former CMD of HAL and former CAS of the IAF have stated this on record, and all these have been reproduced in LIVEFIST as well in the past. And pray stop having wet-dreams about India being able to fight a two-front war (limited or all-out?) as even the US till this day (after World War-2) has been unable to wage two-front warfare.
To [email protected]: A picture is worth a thousand words. Try studying the photos of the airframe of the T-50 PAK-FA and Tejas Mk1 and the obvious will become visible.
prasun , Ashish [email protected] must have meant the amca not the fgfa !!!!!!!
So we're opening all the purse strings for a 75% foreign plane in the name of joint development.
Now let's scrap that AMCA and join the F-35 program. Then we can order 250-300 more of those and feel proud.
To lspk: I pray he did. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt.
AMCA being a later production can be expected to be no less than the F-35.
Gautam, development of 25-30% of the FGFA is a lot! BTW, what makes you think the Indians will get to do any development in the F-35 other than manufacture under ToT (say) devices to measure the tyre pressure? How do you suppose the Indians can afford 250-300 F-35's and what's the great pride in having an "iffy" sanction prone a/c?
Prasun is partially correct in stating "Secondly, the T-50 PAK-FA will not be the FGFA. The FGFA will be lighter and a tandem-seat MRCA, with a far higher quantum of composites-based fuselage sub-structures than is the case with the T-50 PAK-FA."
Its gonna take 4 years to fit a new engine on the LCA Mk2 after which it'll be inducted only by 2017. If anyone things we can build the AMCA and have it inducted by 2020, they're living in wonderland!
Ideally we should have 2 agencies coming up with 2 different versions of the AMCA and choose the best one (like the Amercians & Russians did).
But that wont work in India's current defence industry setup.
Anon@ 8:25PM,
The FGFA will essentially just be a 2-seat version of PAK-FA with some Indian electronics. All the principal work such as general design, stealth shaping, radar absorbent materials, composite materials, engines, radar, weapon systems and even cockpit MFDs and helmet-mounted displays are already being developed by Russia.
The FGFA, from reports, will only have an Indian mission computer, communication system, navigation system, EW system and maybe some of the composite components. Most of these we can already get implemented on the F-35 for an Indianised 'F-35I' if we sign up as a development partner. Similar to the deal Israel is getting to integrate its own avionics. Heck, we're already using Indian components for mission computers, cockpits and EW systems for upgrade programs like the MiG-23 and Mirage-2000.
And for an order of 200+ F-35s the Americans will most certainly offer local production. Only they won't transfer their stealth technology, but they're not doing that for anyone else, and what's to say the Russians won't offer degraded stealth for the FGFA which is the 'export version' of PAK-FA?
Gautam, what's "degraded stealth"? Going a bit deeper, what in your opinion are the different types of stealth? Could you defend "And for an order of 200+ F-35s the Americans will most certainly offer local production."? Are you certain of "Most of these we can already get implemented on the F-35 for an Indianised 'F-35I' if we sign up as a development partner." IMVHO, If India joins the F-35 "development", it'll be relegated to the third-class compartment.
It's not a great leap of logic for India to get local production when the UK and other countries like Japan have been getting the same from the US for decades with much smaller orders.
And I'm not speaking without precedent. Israel's already got that kind of deal, though you repeatedly ignore my mention of it to continue your own argument.
Buying 2-3 squadrons of F-35 B/C's for the Indian Navy will make sense. The only replacement for the SHAR's is another STOVL a/c. Mig 29 K's are pretty good a/c's and could help add to the "punch" carried by the Indian carrier fighter groups. However, once they retire (one way or the other), the SHAR's absence will be sorely felt operationally. Thus the need to procure F-35 B/C's.
@Gautam: It's a great leap of logic to compare Indian with the UK and Israel. I'm not ignoring your argument. It's just that you have no logic underlying your "arguments". Sorry if I sound rude. The best way around is to use the FGFA deal to have a footing in the design and development of the technology of 5th generation a/c and buy 2-3 (or even more) squadrons of F-35's to fill the imminent operational gap which will be caused by the pensioning off of the IN SHAR's. BTW, you haven't answered my questions raised at 2:39 PM!