Shortly after two Tejases roared into the sky for a quick flight display, Naik went on to describe the Tejas as a “MiG-21++” fighter, and went on to say, “At present it is not a fourth generation aircraft. It will come up, but at present it is not.” He also indicated that the Tejas Mk-II would not only be powered by the F414 engine, but would incorporate airframe design changes and newer avionics. A statement issued today by ADA today said that the IAF had projected a need for 83 Tejas Mk-II aircraft (which would give the IAF a fleet of 123 aircraft in total — far less than projected). The first flight of the Mk-II is scheduled for December 2014. Indigenous content on the Mk-II will be 75 per cent according to the HAL chief.
HAL chairman Ashok Nayak said that the company’s capacity to churn out ten Tejas fighters a year could be ramped up if the need arose — current capacity jointly shared by the Hawk and Tejas lines could be made into a dedicated Tejas line, he said. The unit cost of a Tejas will be between Rs 180-200 crore.
ADA said in a statement that the following would bridge the gap between initial and final operational clearance: integration of beyond visual range weapons, gun, rockets, guided and unguided bombs, and the further expansion of its flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (-2 to 6G for IOC) and 24-degrees angle of attack (22 for IOC).
Photo by Shiv Aroor
The truth has come out…even IAF doesn't want this less than 3rd gen a/c…HAL has to work even more to come to IAF's expectations…no mig 21++ but much more than that…
I sympathize completely with Chief Marshal Naik. It is ridiculous to expect any sane member of the air force to be happy with such incomplete work. It isn't at all surprising that he refers to it as a 'MiG-21++' aircraft, nor that he doesn't even consider it to be a 4th generation fighter. The presence of those MPs and MLAs should be a clear indication that the Air Force's hand is being forced by the government to accept this aircraft.
Despite everything, I'm hoping the Mark II actually gets airborne in time. Any more delays and the air force will have MMRCAs before a proper Tejas.
For starters Shiv, we need a more elaborate review of the events. Also, some snippets about your personal interactions with the operating level personnel.
There has to be a genuine reason for Air Chief to be upset. I guess, the actual status of Tejas readiness is not revealed, and the IAF is forced to accept to MoD pressure. Common, lets agree, they are among the most patriotic people we can find in India. They would welcome an Indian product if there were not many issues…
Your views are welcome.
For starters Shiv, we need a more elaborate review of the events. Also, some snippets about your personal interactions with the operating level personnel.
There has to be a genuine reason for Air Chief to be upset. I guess, the actual status of Tejas readiness is not revealed, and the IAF is forced to accept to MoD pressure. Common, lets agree, they are among the most patriotic people we can find in India. They would welcome an Indian product if there were not many issues…
Your views are welcome.
Shiv, don't know whether you will post this or not. But I do have something to tell.
First and foremost is that the IAF chief is a jackass. Why? Because he got issues with the aircraft and don't want it to go to war with the current capability? And what's wrong in he stating the obvious that the Tejas is not capable than the one in his dreams (like the Eurofighter and the other fighters) Why because this jackass is not a good leader. A good leader must not just be capable of standing bravely but also must be a visionary. Now what made this jackass to think that the Tejas will not be capable enough in the coming years and what made him think that all the test parameters will not be met? Assuming things unncessarily because his vision is myopic is something that he has to change. Being a person with no vision and being a blind person with no vision for the development of indegenous capability is the biggest setback for the Air force and the Army. Look at the Navy. They are the ones. Those people are not only brave (Will surely be brave ++ for their stance) and their vision is uncomparable. The Naval chief himself said that they would have prefered a Rafale, but still say that they will support the Tejas, because they want to see indegenous aircraft. Is that said because he is a staunch patriot? No. (Not questioning his patriotism or his love for the nation, which need not be asked) but what else. He is a visionary like the other naval chiefs were. These Naval guys start from scratch. They induct stupid stuff in the first go. Then in the next stage they improve it to bring it with the rest of the world and finally they come with something stunning and beautiful than the rest of the world and comparable to the best like the U.S or French. Look at their frigates, starting from Godavari, they built the next gen Brahmaputra class. Look at them today. They have the stealth Shivalik class frigate in service. and similarly from Delhi class destroyers to P15 class stealth destroyers and now planning to have next gen P15A. Wow. Look at their vision. Now take the aircrafts itself. They will induct the Tejas and then they will go for the AMCA and may be the advanced version of that as well. That's the Naval guys. And we have the air chief and army chiefs. Two idiots for sure. Not useful idiots but two useless idiots.
half empty!!
PV Naik is talking as if the entire IAF fleet is made up of 5th gen planes. Mig-21, Jaguar, Mig 27, Mirage 2000 and all types of junk is piled on IAF circus and still he wants some sooper-dooper plane. Get real IAF, we have one of the largest number of poor people in the world. Our economy is not in a state to import expensive $100 mil planes. At some point of time we need to stop importing and start supporting our indigenous systems even if they are less than perfect. It is not that we are up against UsAf that we need all 4++ gen fighters. We need cheap and effective planes that can we can make in large quantities.
look, am getting mixed signals over this article. I read and article which mention that IAF need around 200+ LCA. out of those 200, 99 of them will be Mk2 and now they say that the Mk 2 will not be powered by GE F414 engine!! in between CONGRATULATIONS to The scientists who work hard to built this bird!!
P.s Can some one please give me an update of the AMCA program, like when is it going to fly? first flight? and FOC?
Naik should resign..5th generation aircraft don't grow on trees ..without support from services the indigenous effort will loose momentum and die… If we ever want to grow a spine, it's time we get rid of kill joys like Nalayak ….
shiv, you seems not be happy with Tejas IOC ceremony what happened?
At least the IAF chief shoots straight. He calls it a a MIg 21++ which it is in every sense of the word. Oh well – very mixed feelings.
shiv dont u think ada was going far slower than tortoise i just shocked looking at december 2014 for first flight of tejas mk2 what do ada do until then by that time pak may build a new modified jf17 may be india is targeting 2020 ioc for tejas mk2
in my opinion ada should stop building any fighter they just lack vision they dont know how to move things fast they cant compete with any other country even china, paki combo
Philosophical pessimism in the post i think u r not in best mood today.
Forget about netas they are like dogs tail.
Please stop looking at the downside try to look at it's strengths.
The LCA is extremely cost effective for a stealth fighter. It will be much more agile than the F-35 with her sophisticated use of composites and advanced Indian made avionics will give it advantage over most Russian offerings. I hope India builds 1000 LCA fighters and offer it to export all around the world.
It's already been said… But worth repeating… These IAF guys are a bunch of half-assed idiots because they lack any capacity for strategic planning.
With paucity of funds during the 1990's they should have been working even closer with the ADA to ensure that they got what they wanted.
It's like going to a tailor ordering a suit, not choosing the fabric, not choosing the styling, not letting the tailor take measurements but instead provide them oneself (and change it 3 times over) and coming to the fitting and complaining that this wasnt what you wanted!!!!
hmm… shiv i would love if u get an expert like jasjit singh or any other high- ranking observer say from idsa to give an unbiased view on the whole issue of the tejas' capabilities… plus the mig-21 aint that bad even today…so ++ works for me… and come on we gotta support such indigenous efforts… the initial j-10 crashed bcoz the chinkis took long to master the fbw tech… so lets keep up our spirits
http://frontierindia.net/lca-tejas-handed-over-to-indian-airforce-iaf-chief-clarifies-it-is-a-fourth-gen-aircraft
This article puts a slightly different spin on things.
As of now the Tejas has not demonstrated a BVR capability but has radar which is compatible with at least one in service BVR missile namely the Derby. That's a matter of time. Similarly with PGMs. The Litening Pod is cleared and running with the Tejas so LGB clearance is a matter of time.
Remember the F-16 entered service with no BVR capability and had no BVR capability for quite a long time until somebody woke up and decided that was insufficient.
I was late for Tejas' aerial display but,I got an oppurtunity to see our Air forces Embraer-135 legacy take-off. There after,it was very boring out there. Even the Radar dish over the ATC tower had stopped spinning.
I guess even the IOC ceremony wasn't very exciting..
Kudos to the IAF chief, he's not afraid to speak his mind.
If he criticizes the LCA people call him unpatriotic.
Well patriotism doesnt win wars! Capabilities do! The LCA is too little too late.
Lets call a spade a spade.
First of all the main components of the aircraft – the radar & engine – are not Indian.
The LCA will transition through 3 different engines! And the radar ….well god knows when that will materialize.
Some folks are blinded by patriotism. Think rationally, think with your head not your heart, you'll live longer!
ADA and DRDO should start kick backs (2 to 3 flats in aadarsh like society + some $$$) for IAF and Army chiefs, at least this will help the indigenous products.
I wonder wats going on with the army..smerch mbrls are dysfunctional, t90s dont work in desert and who knows wat else..but in the end when the head is rotten one cannot blame the body.(said for zardari, but also suits our political class)
IAF knows where to place this aircraft. Sulur airforce station no where near to chinkis or pakis. So that during the time of war it will be in safe place. we can proudly say that no LCA lost during the WAR.
Sulur Airforce station and Public in Coimbatore needs protection from this deadly aircraft.
DONT WASTE HARD EARNED PEOPLES MONEY IN THE NAME OF R&D.
Regards,
TAXPAYER
Seeing his big tummy…one can feel how corrupt…this moron chief was involved in procuring MIG-23…see there fate those aircraft did there service less than 20 years….where they should have done 30 yrs…leave all this…this guy opposed the plan a HAL bomber aircraft like jaguar… in 1980s…again this guy is opposing everything…We need people like PK Babora….who know how to speak…
what do u mean by if need arose?Ehi attitude ka hum baat kar raha the hum,sasura jab tak e dimag wala aadmi he,hamar baat mano bhaiya tejas dariya ma hi jayega!Ekdam khasta halat he par akal sasuri ab tak thikane ni ayi!
Jabtak hum apna production technology ma sudhar ni laate,tabtak sare hatiyaro ki quality below average to rahegi sath me sufficient supply b impossible he!
Sigh!atleast we got it operational!
Suggestions r most welcome!
What can I say …. BETTER LATE THAN NEVER …..
With that said … I am celebrating this occassion … the Tejas / LCA has finally made it into the hands of IAF ….. Sometime ago I feared it would be aborted before it was born … now we can prove to the world that we produce world class fighter jet …. also smaller friendly nations whose requirement would not need expensive American or European jets might want it too….
Designing a 5th or 6th generation fighter needs a lot funding and expertise … I am sure this is a positive step and in the near future India will make top fighter jets with satellite tech in it and rule the skies…
The wings and the underbelly of the aircraft look cool in the pics …. some of the pics I saw three years ago the airframe was poorly made … but now this one in the pics handed over to the IAF look very polished and neat….
In a war scenario … we need numbers to protect our country and assets … even if a Mig 21 still can do certain low level missions ….. the Tejas is equipped far better and sure to be a menace to any enemy aircraft….
Let's say the Tejas is a mini- Mirage 2000…. rather than a Mig 21 …..
Things are simple and the taxpayers hard earned money is right on the track.
TejasMk1 FOC makes it 40 Nos of 4th Gen fighters. TejasMk2 FOC makes it 83 Nos of 4+th Gen fighters and TejasMk3 FOC makes it 83 Nos of 4++th Gen fighters giving a total of 206 Nos of A/Cs. This will bring down the unit costs.
IAF & DRDO need to work hard and be congratulated for a two front theory.
It is clear from the statement of CHIEF IAF that he is not completely satisfied from LCA's present capability .he do not even recognize it as a 4th gen.aircraft.His dissatisfaction is completely genuine.IAF wait for 27 years for such a 2nd class aircraft.It will for no use but only for increasing the no. of aircraft reather than increasing there striking power.
I THINK IAF SHOULD USE IT FOR AIR SHOWS ONLY.AT LEAST IT WILL HAVE SOME USE IN IAF.IT IS NOTHING BUT A SHOWPIECE.
LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPEN TO LCA MARK-2.I HOPE OUR SCIENTIST WILL TAKE IT LITTLE BIT SERIOUSLY AND WILL NOT REPEAT IT AGAIN.
Pathetic news!!! Mig-21++??? Bull crap!!! Even worse – only 83 Mk2??? I was so optimistic regarding the future of the Tejas Mk2..I was dreaming it to be a Gripen NG class fighter which will be inducted in fairly large numbers, but now it seems IAF is least interested or bothered about our indigenous efforts..All my hopes rest upon AMCA…But if IAF continues to show similar lack of interest with the AMCA project, then its future is bleak too…
[1] Lets not question anybody's patriotism here. He is just speaking the truth.
[2] Also, lets not call him myopic. He is not being pessimistic here. He says – its not a 4 gen aircraft, but it will come up.
[3] I don't quite agree that we need something cheap in large quantities. Who is going to fly that? If there is a war tomorrow, and our pilots get hammered in those cheap planes, who will fly the large no of planes? After all, pilots are not being produced in large nos, and even if they were, they are humans with families. Cheap in large quantities isn't an option. We need good stuff.
Agree that Kuljeet that 4/5 gen aircraft don't grow on trees. Also, agree that we have to, at some point in time (and we are rather late I believe), start supporting native stuff, and start making it better.
LoL @ the guy talking about bravery and posting anonymously.
and LoL @ the guy saying we are poor..sure we are but we are also have Pakistan and China as neighbors rapidly modernizing their air forces with top classproven weapons.We need quality aircraft that will do the job in a war like the Mirage-2000 for eg.
Our Air Force chief is a Russian sycophant and a pessimistic numbskull!!
Shiv,
Will this current mk-I have a BVR capability with AA-12 adder, MICA etc….if it has no BVR capability it will be a sitting duck.
-vishal
"Mig-21 ++" — a very accurate description of the LCA by the IAF chief and what's wrong with that?!! Wasn't that what the LCA was all about — a Mig-21 replacement? So, hat's off to the HAL for having delivered an aircraft which is 2 times better than the Mig-21. Now if there are idiots who where expecting this bird to be in the same class as the RAFALE, EF-2000 etc, then obviously they have reason to be upset.
Even in it's current form the LCA is paisa vasool because it gives IAF rookies the perfect platform after the Kirans and Hawks, to hone their skills & build their confidence (without getting killed!) before they move onto the more complicated/expensive jets.
Sorry to disappoint those who were expecting the LCA to do pugachev cobras and high g turns and do combat with the F-16s & J-11s/J-20s of our neighbours. This is a "Light Combat Aircraft" — i.e, it was developed for 'light combat' only… not for 'heavy combat'. Get it?!
shiv i have read in other Indian newspaper where it is clearly stated that IAF chief was misunderstood as saying Tejas was not a fourth generation aircraft. But the Air chief later clarified that it was a fourth gen aircraft. Here is one link..
http://frontierindia.net/lca-tejas-handed-over-to-indian-airforce-iaf-chief-clarifies-it-is-a-fourth-gen-aircraft
And why suddenly IAF will now be so unhappy about tejas when a few days ago air marshall P K Barbora told reporters that IAF 'reasonably happy' with LCA Tejas?
Here is the link.. http://www.deccanherald.com/content/124319/iaf-reasonably-happy-lca-tejas.html
Apart from these congratulations to my all Indian friends for this major milestone. This day is indeed a red letter day for ur indigenous defense and aviation industry. I have no doubt that India will be on top of the world again before half of this century ends. And being a part of Indian subcontinent we Bangladeshi's are also a part your glory…(i feel sad we're a different country now!) 🙂
Shiv, thank you once again for speaking the truth. Hats off to all the great air force people who have served the nation well, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik one among them. It is very clear that the HAL and DRDO lobby have managed to have their way so far. And the Baboos have gone all out to pamper them, the reasons are quite obvious. Our brave young men have put their lives on the altar to fly these untried, unwanted planes, because of pressure from the Government. Why do we have to do this? Can't we tell the Government to stop making planes and give that job to the TATAS MAHINDRAS L&TS RELIANCES etc; and then watch the game…
Haha, nice pun with the 'Rescue' picture 🙂
Tejas seems to be IAF version of Arjun saga (Army sabotaging an indigenous product in order to safeguard their stream of kickbacks! LOL!). An IAF chief who is more interested in making a group captain out of a cricketer (Sachin Tendulkar) makes us question his loyalty and competence. Did he get this post coz the President (who is accused of murder) is also from same state? It's a well known fact that these massive defense imports generate 100s of million $s kickbacks for our baboo, netas and also the top brass (recent slew of scams involving officers of the highest rank). His feigning disdain for indigenous product is to scuttle the project or reduce the numbers as larger numbers of Tejas leaves no room for kickback generating expensive imports.
How safe are we with such kind of Army, Navy and Air force? Their incompetence is brought out in all terror attacks. MARCOS, which is based in Mumbai, was no where to be seen for hours after the terrorist striked the Taj (situated next to Naval HQO).
AUR LOOTO DESH KO "SECURITY" KE BAHANA ME.
@anon 6:27, article says tejas mk2 will 'NOT ONLY' be powered by GE F414. So that means it will be powered by GE F414 after all.
Hi Shiv,
"Congratulation You all DRDO,HAL,ADA and Test Pilots"
It's Great to see Finaly Tejas's 'IOC',I'm very happy doing lungi dance.But http://www.lca-tejas.org/ website is worst then any fighter plane website.
Ugly truth time: the JF-17/FC-1 is better than the LCA.
You all laughed at the JF-17 but it proved a better aircraft. It has better range and agility. It has a built in EW suite and carries a better load. It's fully operational with BVR missiles. By the time the LCA is fully operational, it will be even more obsolete than it is now.
The best thing I can say about the LCA is that it might be a good learning tool to teach HAL how to make planes like the Chinese learnt from their J-10. Now they have jumped to the J-20. I think India can do even better with her AMCA.
India needs to wean herself away from Russian arms. They are outdated and inferior to Western weapons. India has nothing to learn from these failures and should aim to surpass American weapons instead. Our scientists are too cautious and lazy. They need to be more ambitious and set higher goals instead of being satisfied with mediocrity. You can buy the F-35 to fill our "low" requirement but the AMCA MUST BE SUPERIOR TO THE F-22!!!
Why the heck is this being widely heralded as India's first indigenous fighter jet when it clearly is the second (after the HF-24 Marut)?
And of course India is being reported to have once again joined the "select club of blah blah nations" when in fact we joined it in, er, 1961. (Our obsession with joining select clubs of nations is of course a separate topic altogether.)
The ignorance is amazing.
MiG-21++ is the best way to describe this fighter.
Stop criticizing the Marshall. He has only spoken the truth.
And I believe that he definitely has more information than us on the issue.
@Anon1.01,agree with what you say on management and vision.But do not on the JF-17 bit.EW suites are external pods. The Paki-China aircraft will not be met by the LCA nor was it meant to be.The LCA was supposed to replace(as most forget)and not to be a 4th or 5th gen replacement.It will a useful learning tool and and will be a useful tool.The IAF even at present is far more capable than the Pakis with the JF-17s included.Forget the paki lies,remeber that the the IAF in all conflicts with the pakis have flown a far greater number of sorties than the Pakis and have always supported our troops and campaign more.The Pakis has mostly stuck to covering his a** over Pakistan airspace.
"Why the heck is this being widely heralded as India's first indigenous fighter jet when it clearly is the second (after the HF-24 Marut)?"
Because Kurt Tank wasn't Indian.
Vow, a sentence from IAF and we have "INDIAN TAXPAYERS" screaming for blood!
For God Sake this is IOC. IOC does NOT include BVR testing. Isn't IAF Chief correct when he says it has yet to reach 4 gen status! Which country gets everything on a aircraft on IOC!
Who will call F-22's as 5 gen if it was not able to fire a BVR?
I dont feel sorry, because IAF Chief said the obvious, I pity the nation who has such useless listeners!
I hope we again get to see leaders like Cariappa and Manekshaw. I used to think people in defence forces are clean but I have serious apprehensions after kapoor, viz, naval commodore singh and now naik (lower cases are intentional) I guess we had rotten politicians along with Babus and there was no doubt about it but it looks that corruption is even deeper in defence procurement….
I believe we don't have to fight Pak or China as Migs are already doing their Job but then they will spend billion for upgrades..Hypocrites
Why this whine man..
This is a proud moment for India and the defense scientists who have toiled their hearts out.. It doesnt hurt or cost you anything to say something nice about OUR LCA
Go get a drink….
@ [email protected].. (@shiv sorry for being off topic.. but sm things need to be sorted out )
MARCOS were not there coz they wr not requisitioned by the civil administration…They do not have to go in even if something happens next door.. that is the way things work out when forces are assisting the civil administration… (and you idiots ask for repealing of AFSPA in J&K) In our country security is not just the responsibility of the Forces .. It starts from the Political establishment… What task is given to the forces, they have been doing it in the best possible way…
Ignorance is bliss.. and you are blissful..
@HAL,DRDO,ADA,ADE and all engineers and scientists…AND THE TEST PILOTS… GR8 job done … keep up and speed up… 🙂
A pessimistic Air Chief indeed..
I am really happy to see LCA inducted into IAF. Of course its a small step but certainly a great leap for aircraft development in our country which could grow in multiples in the years to come, thanks to the Tejas experience.
WELL done scientists and also well done A.K Antony who has become the visionary and strongest supporter of indigenisation in all spheres of Indian defence.
Naik is one more of our customers, civilians better deliver type..don't expect him and IAF johnnies to do partnership etc with the civiie guys. Potbelly is good at ordering not working together…compare to the Navy, its so depressing to see what idiots we have in the IAF and Army…they spend half the time importing stuff and spend the other half running to MOD/MOF for supplementary agreements because nothing works as promised and common taxpayer ends up paying more…and if you talk to these IAF guys off the record over a few drinks, they blame the civilians..
People like Naik never worked with others, it was all orders, orders, orders..
@Pramod, when you see bullets and bombs flying out of your window, you being the chief of a unit that is solely created to counter terror, will sit on your desk twiddling your thumb "waiting for orders" from a semi literate, quasi/full criminal, tobacco chewing, lungi/dhoti/pyjama clad neta or babu in Nai Dilli?
@Jith
Sonu's teen bandar: Annu (Anthony), Mannu (Manmohan) and Pannu (Pranab) who won't see anything, hear anything or say anything. Nice set of netas keeping the seat warm for Rahul baba.
LCA Tejas in short = 27 yrs, 25,000 crore & only 60% indigenous!
This doesnot include the costs for the Mark II version or naval LCA.
Neither does it include the costs of the Kaveri engine & indigenous radar.
In the end its just one big pay check to DRDO.
BTW, Mark II will only enter service in 2016!
Ofcourse judging from comments here many folk dont mind the IAF fighting with a blunt knife as long as its "indigenous".
Some people need to get a reality check ASAP.
[email protected]
mainu mat ghasit oye!warna nathuram godse aka INDIAN TAXPAYER meri maar lega!but list ekdam jhakas he baap! bahahahaha
Hi Shiv,
You work for headline today and Aaj tak is the sister concern. Here is the link to news on Tejas LCA reported from this channel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZhpvRVbYec. She is a laughing stock. AK 47 in LCA? Just watch it.
It is unfortunate that reporters like these get away with nonsense reporting.
Sincerely,
JB
BTW Just read on BR forum by a person who watched this video:
"Give 6 mins and 50 seconds of my life back."… I know what she would answer….. watch it backwards!
@ shiv…since people are mentioning costs here…please give some figures (ballpark atleast) of similar and advanced programmes
also it was on some site that the actual funding came much later than 1983..please clarify
@ people saying that pvt companies would do better
course they would..i mean in private companies every1 has two brains …
@ ArkAngel…
news reports would suggest your numbers are widely overestimated…some reports say 12k Cr..some 14.5kCr…but nowhere close to what you have said
shiv..pls clarify
i have to question the ACMs timing… a kid might be a fool..but his bday is not the place to proclaim it….
cant understand why people say minister forcing stuff down IAFs throat…there is no profit for them by doing so…neither financial nor political..
Don't worry guys. We people have waited for 25 years, let us wait some more and lets see what fruit hangs after 5 more years.Hopefully tejas has given us enough experiences to build an advanced aircraft. We really hope so. Lets wait we all will know. Our country is full of talents( thinking of iits, iims), i don't understand which talented people (scientists or production managers) are working in HAL and ADA. There is a reservation too? They cant even speak proper english, who are designing this modern marvel ? or preferred candidates? or all money allocated are going to some deep hole on somebody's fat belly! Abandon this LCA advancement programme( such as lCA mark 2,) immediately.., don't hesitate to induct LCA in their current configuration, to fill the gaps in squadrons..But Focus on Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft…seriously…N..O..W…and astonish the world…For this country's sake…you still have the chance Mr. Defence Minister( and HAL and ADA and IAF and related guys) or it will again be late like LCA is.
-a citizen of Indian Democracy.