Hey shiv thanks for stating the time….bcoz last time u said u will update regarding J-20…u never did it and u have done it for many other post also…..It would be great if u would continue stating the time about when ever u posting the full article rather the headline like this one….this is a serious suggestion…i am reading u r blog since 2007…thank u in advance
Loosing it's edge in what context?? over the last wars fought PAF war machine was far more superior than us..but better pilot training gave us the edge over them in the aerial warfare..
Please let our politician to became rich! They are trying so hard. Forget about arms for national defense if we let then free they definitely take everything from us. (Even our underwear's).
Shiv, this is a serious concern. We take years to test aircrafts. Our IAF bosses are overly critical of indigenous development calling LCA as Mig 21++, but will look the otherway when glaring problems are shown in western fighters.
Our IAF can continue to fly Mig 21 but are overly skeptical of LCA!!!
We will continue to fly Jaguars whose powerplants generate just 64kn but we are critical of Kaveri which can generate 81kN thrust!
So to ensure that our country is safe from the Chinks and Pakis, we need to have a sense of urgency.
Buy the F16s as Lockheed Martin can deliver them fast and develop LCA Mk2 as the aircraft that can fill the gaps…
you are one of the fools who look only outside and do not even know what is happening inside. stop all these negative journalism now.do you really know what it takes to be in the armed forces that too in the indian air force.you are insulting all the brave men of iaf.on what accounts do you say iaf is losing edge over paf, is our pilots bad or is our mighty su-30mki is bad.it is only the numbers that we are losing but we will come back strongly and hard
Pakistan defencebudget may be 1/6 of IAF but PAF has never fought by itself in its wars against India. In 71 and 65, Indian airforce was fighting planes and pilots from middle eastern countries. In times of war, Saudi airforce, Syrian and other will come to PAF aid. India may have been staunch supporter of Palestine but Jordanian airforce sent its planes to fight under PAF flag in 71. UAE airforce is largely managed by PAF and they have an agrrement to provide F16 to PAF in time of need. In any future war, IAF will have to contest with Saudi Euro fighter and F16 etc..
We dont have an edge realistically.. Our pilots may have been brave but the best are being taken by evergrowing airline industry and private sector due to low growth and lack of planes in IAF..enough said
Not to be complacent,but is the situation so bad! Nothing can beat the gap we had in the early to late-eighties/early 90s with the PAF.
Our chaps have fought PAF in 1965 when they had the best of US radars and aircraft.We did not even have advanced AAMs in 1965 or radar sights that the Pakis had.
This is not to say that the blood and guts stuff is enough. But,IAF even at current inventory vis-a-vis PAF packs quite a punch esp in Helos and airlift. In fact the Pakis often bemoan that we howl at barely double digit F-16s they acquire, ignoring the wave of our own acquisitions.Jf-17s the Pakis well know is only preferable because the yanks will gift them only as much and buying latest western aircraft in numbers is beyond PAFs budget The jf-17s pakis are getting is only due to long term deep credit given by the Chinese.
Whats the point in spending so much when there will be no war in the coming time..Every problem will have diplomatic solution(even if India wud be on the losing side)bcoz the Govt. seriously lacks any spine(not even 1% of Indira Gandhi or Vajpayee Govt.)to give an answer to the aggressors. They have put us in a habit of losing our dignity and courage. They shud drop the idea of defence and make paper planes..
The plane of the Indian government has been executed correctly. Not that India is in a bat situation, our government will go ahead and purchase of-shelf defense products which are tagged with SCAM. This is happening for ages nothing new….
Congress party is really fishy, there has not been any fast movements of defense procurement with NCP running the show. On top of all SCAMS and now Shiv is freak us out with some untold truth.
pak has more aircraft mounted weapons which r tried n tested by us gien to them, around 100 tommahawks have been rumored to have been passed on on the name of fighting the taliban and arams etc they r gettin awacs too even though inferior
threat is not from their air force but as someone mentioned by the other countries supplying aircraft's n piots……..n equipment, Saudis have an agreement to even give third awacs for use but still, we will never have a long war with pak in the coming future.
Even after allocating 10+ billion for MRCA, 5+ billon for C17, 2+ billion on AWACS and a few more billions on hercules, we are still loosing edge to pakistan?
How much more do we need to spend to stay ahead of a small country like pakistan?
I would like to say that such sort of assessments and judgments by the media are half baked and based on incomplete information. I am sure no one can access the complete picture except the AF itself. Generally its the tendency of the media to build a story around a some statement made off the cuff by some irresponsible or disgruntled officer. Its like building house around a Tap. Such sort of reviews and documentaries clearly undermine the professionalism of our Air Force. You are forgetting that the edge of IAF was much worse in 1965 or 1971. PAF had the Sabre on its side. We had our own Gnat or Ajeet. But we had the PAK running for their lives. Have you forgotten Nirmaljit Singh Sekhon or Trevor Keeler. At the end its the man behind the machine that matters. The best example is during kargil war, when the Mirages went out on CAP they were able to see on their radar Aircrafts on the other side idle. We shot down a intruder spy plane with a MIG 21. Why did not Pakistan react. What the program was not clear is where is it we are loosing the edge. Numerical superiority may not account at all when you have high technology at your disposal. I read a comment about Naval aviation being sc****. I guess these guys should brief themselves before passing such comments. With the Induction of MIG 29N Indian navy has capacity to go and hit targets in Australia or the beyond Gulf of Aden. Yes numbers are a matter of concern but only temporary. Let not such irresponsible and immature TV programs demoralize our forces. If you not able to contribute to the betterment of the force let it be so. But dont contribute to demoralsing of the Forces.
LOL…Don't a mountain out of a molehill Shiv. I'm a Pakistani and I'm getting the feeling this report produced in conjunction with the arm's suppliers to squeeze the balls of the IAF into making more impulsive purchases.
Pakistan ko choro aur cheen ki fikar karo.
PS: Love the "dishum dishum" style of your reports.
Mediocre show. Good enough for ordinary people to rile up and agree to import more foreign fighters. In reality, there is nothing that can be done except waste money on weapons. If 282 Sukhois can not bring INDIA peace than I wonder what will. The parity between both airforces is one more reason not to fight.
When it comes to defence purchases , due to a clear and lethal mindset. , pak politicians have always taken better decisions.
Indian politicians have not only taken weak but slow decisions and again implementation has taken years. MMRCA is a live circus show that is going on for years. MMRCA is URGENT looking at current chinese presence and aggressive behavior in north east but it is stil lgoing on snails pace.
Our IAF chief is busy distributing awards to world cup winners but he has no time to pressurize the indian politicos to decide fast on MMRCA.
Paks acquisition of T-80UD tanks was an example of good decision taken by pak politicos. It was fast implemented and send shivers down indian army. they went on shopping spree of 1. T-90s, 2. Anti tank missiles, mines and what not. Reactive defence not pro active defence. pak politicos have always provided better weapons to their forces .
But india has still not learnt from its history. Time and again the armoured cataphract cavalry of Mohhammed ghori defeated us but we had no answer to it.
A 2 minute story has been stretched to half hour stuff. Shiv you do much much better. At least you could have done put a chart comparing the capabilities of Mig29,Sukhois 30MKI versus Porki Teens.
Are we losing the edge? Yes, the PAF with BVRMs and AWACS now can think of challenging IAF strike packages in the air.
But that sentence does not communicate the above scenario. What most people will understand from "IAF losing its edge to PAF" will translate into "PAF better than IAF now"
With more aircraft, more capability, better training, the IAF looks poised to not only decimate the PAF in a shooting match, it will also strongly influence the ground war.
Are we losing the edge? Yes, the PAF with BVRMs and AWACS now can think of challenging IAF strike packages in the air.
But that sentence does not communicate the above scenario. What most people will understand from "IAF losing its edge to PAF" will translate into "PAF better than IAF now"
With more aircraft, more capability, better training, the IAF looks poised to not only decimate the PAF in a shooting match, it will also strongly influence the ground war.
I read the report in the Headlines Today this morning. Nothing that was not known or surprising in this report. Pretty tame stuff.
Relative strength of countries is like the stock market. One moments value of index does not define the life time performance of a portfolio. Similarly the current state coupled with the probability of war does not mean anything.
There is enough for deterrence. Transitions are tough but have to be gone through.
People speak of Saudi AWACS. I am not from the armed forces but logic tells me that if you have not practiced with this equipment it may not be of much use. It can't be like a Lego block that can be fitted hours or days before a war.
Pak politicians have nothing to do with Pakistani Defence Matters.They probably do not even know what the true budget of the Pak forces is.Pakistan is dominated by its army and all decisions taken by it are determined by its forces.Pakistani arms procurement is also determined by the military aid it receives from the USA and China.Without aid from USA and long term credit and finance from China the Pak forces would be in a very different shape.The Jf-17 line is entirely bankrolled by the Chinese. Pakistani Civil politicians have nothing really to do with it.India as a parliamentary democracy has to traverse a different route.Unfortunately we have too many procedure and civilians dominate the process.But,there is a flip side to it too.India throughout out the 80 and 90s starved it forces of Budget and concentrated it effort on economic growth and liberalization.This has enable a rapidly growing Indian economy of today which is an essential element of a county's power.Pakistan as we can well see is in ruin and chaos due to its overwhelming quest to achieve parity with India on everything.It is dependent on foreign aid and the IMF.In its quest to match India it will ultimately ruin herself or lag behind,which it has already started to do.What we need is to streamline our procedures and the rest will follow.
Pak has been in the process of buying AWACS for quite a few years now. Same goes for its M109A5 Howitzers from US. Naval ships from Cheen with good Anti Ship missiles such as C 602/802/and Harpoons from US. Upgrades to Mirage III/IV with fuel probes should have indicated the subsequent induction of IL78s from Eastern Europe. PAF inducted AIM 120 a while ago. That event in itself would have nullified any BVR advantage that IAF enjoyed. Pak has also bought the Italian SAM system Spada. It has been modernizing its forces for quite some time now.
So what changed suddenly?
On a different note – on recent flight from Pune a few days earlier I noticed that that none of the Sukois on the tarmac had even a shade over them for protection against the scorching heat yet the IAF has been issuing tenders or RFI left and right to buy sophisticated stuff. This worries me, shouldn’t they take care of what they have now rather than order more fancy stuff. Imagine a pilot getting into one of those cockpits around noon……..a BUM FRIER for sure. Heck I care more about my car than IAF seems to care about its top notch fighter.
But again, when did Indian Air force have a technological advantage over Pakistan? What we had was the numerical and strategic advantage. And hear the news person say about the defensive role of PAF in the past. I have always heard only about the offensive role PAF played. And to a great extend the lack of proper defense was the reason IAF gained supremacy over PAF in the past.
Any way we need to concentrate more on getting better technology and numbers for IAF. or else we will be wearing the loosers hat as pakis did in 65 and 71.
this looks typical again, why is it that after every couple of years there is a ruckus about indian armed forces losing edge over pakistan and in that name billions and billions are again spent? i dont know why the report is so biased but the truth is india has been acquiring weaponry starting 2000 that has made india worlds largest importers and spenders of current times. by 2020, india will again spend about 200+$ billion dollars to acquire more weapons. the report paints IAF as having nothing, but here is what indian forces are already getting, can somebody justify this and then cry about all this shortage? 126 MRCA known to swell to 200+, hawks jets, basic trainers, LCA with us engines, 3+3 phalcons, EU or US air refuelers (in line) 8+4 P8s, 6+6 C130s, 10+6 C17s, Apache gunships, transport helos, utility helos, light helos for northern areas, UAVs from israel, SAM systems from israel and russia, tanks, ballistic missiles, light wight artillery guns from singapore or US, scoepeans for navy, russian n-subs, air craft carriers with mig 29s, PMF aka PAK FA in about 300 numbers, frigates, radars, nuclear deals, space satellites etc etc.
please read reports by sipri and other research think tanks on worlds biggest military spenders. AM singh rightly pointed out that indian gov has never declined armed forces any requests just that the procedures are lengthy which is the reason here not that armed forces arent getting anything.
you can literally name anything made on earth that india is not bent on acquiring. For gods sakes, this is unexampled crying every 2 years. what is jus left on earth that india does not want or is not in process of getting? name me one thing mr.shiv aroor or anyone.
Quick clarification for those who think this is my projection. This is a presentation that was made in January by the IDS to the MoD. I'll be putting it up here shortly.
It appears that we just missed one of the most important part of presentation, the DWINDLING SUBMARINE FLEET. The report mentions that submarine fleet can effectively go down to 5. sent the chill down my spine. forget china we can't tackle pak navy. And why is scorpene sub getting late by 3-4 years? I think we opted for Air Independent Propulsion(AIP) only in response to Pak Augosta class sub equipped with AIP. Again a reactive decision. on the other side of this debate, just think of a scenario where Chinese nuclear Subs (atleast 2)being based out of COCO island in Burma, and Indian Navy wid only 5 subs left to defend Bay of Bengal, Arabian Ocean & Indian Ocean. Just go & read DRAGONFIRE by Humphrey Hawksley
@Anon 4:09. In fact that is what is really putting the wind up Pakistan's A**.Now the IAF ,is not only numerically superior but also growing leaps and bounds qualitatively. IAF in 1965 flew twice the sorties of PAF and in 71 almost thrice. IAF lost a lot of air-craft to ground fire in both these wars.Compared to PAF, IAF has supported its forces much more.Its the IAF which has been on offensive rather than then PAF.They simply had little option.I still think the PAF is ultimately also let down by the tyranny of geography.The IAF (lets not forget the IN air arm too)has more strategic options and depth than Pak thanks to our size and geography.
If India needs to be "deeply worried " about a crumbling Pakistan then what exactly should we be feeling towards the Chinese??? Words like "….that comfort is history, gone…." i mean for real, what are you talking about? India's best (140+ Su30 MKIs) have zero chances of beating Paks best (couple dozen F16s)?
Why dont you ask the most important question? For how many days can Pak financially support a full fledged war with India before it goes bankrupt again or looses international financial aid?
Sensational stories will get you TRPs a balanced one wont. Indian media – melodramatic as ever!
The IAF has a habit of twisting facts to suit its needs. The report makes it appear that only the MoD is resoponsible for the state of affairs. It just cannot be true. The IAF has a lot of explaining to do to the Indian public.
What is the ratio of expenditure in the case of IAF and PAF. The capability should also be in the same ratio. Otherwise the IAF is screwing up.
It has reached a stage where the IAFs credibility has reached a new low. If they do not get their act together, there will be serious damage to the country.
I think people just didn't get the point..The report in MOD isn't saying that we have lost edge to PAK,rather the gap that we maintained earlier,is reducing faster than ever.The main concern is the depleting fighter jet strength.In last 10 years,we have added only sukhoi-30 to our IAF,and that too at terribly slow rate,earlier just 12 a year and now 14 a year.Whatever PAK is getting now,we already have it but again not in the overwhelming quantity.Now if our force level is such against pak,then how are we gonna tackle China.So its just to pressurize MOD(Mr AK) to finalize deals faster and keep china in mind when you are defining strategies.
IAF has already reached a stage where thinking Indians will look suspiciously at whatever they say.
They make it appear as if the MoD or DRDO or HAL are letting the country down, but they are perfect. For a service that has not supported indigenous efforts as much as they should have done, they cry too much. For a beginning let them explain to the Indian public how they have used all the precious funds in the last ten years.
Hi Shiv, Keep up the good reporting, all we can do is to pressure the politicians to make quick desicions for the defense forces, get the best weapons available and increase private partnership in R&D & buidling up our defense forces. We need to build up our own lockhead martin's & General Dynamics & BAE etc…
And increase the pay to private sector levels for Armed Forces & organisations like DRDO, ISRO, & others.. If PAF is a threat, one can imagine what a threat the PLAAF (China) poses!!!
Isn't it more important to focus on our economy and improving the level of R&D and education rather than competing against other air forces.
We have probably the 4th or 5th best air force in the world. We could partner up with other nations and improve our technology instead of worrying about what planes our opposition have.
yar,the guys sitting there ar not dumb.leave their job to them,and shiv bhai dont shatter the morale of indian armed forces.its the attitude that counts others are just no
This report is like the "boy who cried wolf". Bloggers before me have said pretty much what I wanted to say. Cheap ploy by IAF to milk our taxpayers and thereby fill the pockets of powers that be thru kickbacks from such expensive acquisitions. We need to check our defense expenditure which is in far excess to our education and health budget. Winston Churill had said that Empires of the future will be Empires of the mind. You cannot create such Empires without health, education and fulfilling people's basic needs. There are more poor people in India than entire Sub Saharan Africa.
Hi Shiv, Why haven't you posted any news on our Army Chief trying to extend his term with fake birth certificates? The earlier Chief is accused of bribery and corruption. It gives me shivers to know that "defense" of our country is in the hands of such guys.
Washing dirty linen in pubic is surely not going to help them in handling PAF. Let them learn to respect the other arms of the Government first. We have had enough of their whining.
I totally agree with the point that IAF should buy the AESA equipped F-16s which are much cheaper than the heavier rafales and typhoons and equally capable and can be inducted much faster than any of the other fighters in contention for MMRCA.together with LCA MK-2 the entire Mig fleet along with some Jaguars can be replaced in the coming decade.
I've said very often that India is doomed! The next war will see joint China-Pak action over India, and India is NOT PREPARED to fight a war on two fronts.
Simply said, Indians can't fight, plan, or strategise, but they are darn good at frittering their integrity away!
By the time India wakes up to war, it's roads will be blocked because its 1.3 billion idiots simply sleep on the roads (read warpath); by the time it clears its roads (read mind), China will be in Kolkata and Pakistan in Chandigarh!
India doesn't have a chance! Should I feel sorry for India? Well, I'm not going to!
@Anon 2:33, Don't worry. China has only one thing on its mind,self-interest. China see pakis as a convenient b***ch and uses its as such to keep India off balance.For the Pakis were never anything beyond it. The problem for them is that Paki antics are leading themselves on a self-destruct mode.Without Uncle Sam and the Chinese to bail them out ,Pakis are nothing.Additionaly paki have got so used to begging,that they get real lost without any of these bog two daddies along.As far as China is concerned out strategy must be to keep enough forces for them. I still do not think Pak-china joint action is a feasibilty,not by history at least.Though the chinese will do their best to keep paki propped up.The problem for them is that paki are now started to lag so far behind India that keeping them up with India is becoming a big problem. The Pakis i would not worry so much,save for the odd idiotic thing they launch whenever things get problematic at home for them or a paki general wants to show the paki people he has some ba**s.As long as we keep ourselves at reasonable levels,we should be OK.
What crap!! Take a presentation and over hype it… Boy!! 1:1.6 numbers ratio isnt the correct picture look at the quality of the inventory(except the Block 52 F16s in the Paki inventory) what are we comparing just numbers or a reality check of the quantitative-qualitative mix… I believe we should take a mix yes the Paki airforce has improved but well India isnt far behind.. we have had a lost decade in the 90s (sadly due to lack of political will) and now we are making up.. dont look at 2012 lo0k at 2020 with the sukhoi squads completely in place, the 5th gen stealth fighter (Russia-India) in and then the MMRCA completely in place + the upgraded MIG 29s, Jags + the LCA number (atleast above 200: Im optimistic) + more AWACS (Falcons)… What are u saying Mr Shiv Aroor….. Enough of media hype to boost TRPs
this is pure Scare mongering and i didnt expect this from HT, this reminds me of how US defense industry spread false rumors about the "bomber gap" with Russia during the height of the cold war
iaf is losing due to indian politician!!! fuck indian politics
Hey shiv thanks for stating the time….bcoz last time u said u will update regarding J-20…u never did it and u have done it for many other post also…..It would be great if u would continue stating the time about when ever u posting the full article rather the headline like this one….this is a serious suggestion…i am reading u r blog since 2007…thank u in advance
Naval Aviation also in deeeeeeep shit…..
Loosing it's edge in what context??
over the last wars fought PAF war machine was far more superior than us..but better pilot training gave us the edge over them in the aerial warfare..
Well IAF can defeat PAF anyday,Pakistan defence budget is not even 1/6th of India.But this issue is serious with regards to China.
Due to gifted F-16s.
i am not sure about iaf losing its 'edge'..but yes the paf has now become more potent.
just a few years back paf did not have any BVRAAMs like amraam etc…
now they have them on both f-16s and JF-17s and possibly others.
this levels the playing field somewhat with iaf…but iaf's real threat is china…
– vishal
Please let our politician to became rich!
They are trying so hard.
Forget about arms for national defense if we let then free they definitely take everything from us.
(Even our underwear's).
Shiv, this is a serious concern. We take years to test aircrafts. Our IAF bosses are overly critical of indigenous development calling LCA as Mig 21++, but will look the otherway when glaring problems are shown in western fighters.
Our IAF can continue to fly Mig 21 but are overly skeptical of LCA!!!
We will continue to fly Jaguars whose powerplants generate just 64kn but we are critical of Kaveri which can generate 81kN thrust!
So to ensure that our country is safe from the Chinks and Pakis, we need to have a sense of urgency.
Buy the F16s as Lockheed Martin can deliver them fast and develop LCA Mk2 as the aircraft that can fill the gaps…
Pakis Nuke apart, we should now think only about china.
you are one of the fools who look only outside and do not even know what is happening inside. stop all these negative journalism now.do you really know what it takes to be in the armed forces that too in the indian air force.you are insulting all the brave men of iaf.on what accounts do you say iaf is losing edge over paf, is our pilots bad or is our mighty su-30mki is bad.it is only the numbers that we are losing but we will come back strongly and hard
Pakistan defencebudget may be 1/6 of IAF but PAF has never fought by itself in its wars against India. In 71 and 65, Indian airforce was fighting planes and pilots from middle eastern countries. In times of war, Saudi airforce, Syrian and other will come to PAF aid. India may have been staunch supporter of Palestine but Jordanian airforce sent its planes to fight under PAF flag in 71. UAE airforce is largely managed by PAF and they have an agrrement to provide F16 to PAF in time of need. In any future war, IAF will have to contest with Saudi Euro fighter and F16 etc..
We dont have an edge realistically.. Our pilots may have been brave but the best are being taken by evergrowing airline industry and private sector due to low growth and lack of planes in IAF..enough said
Not to be complacent,but is the situation so bad!
Nothing can beat the gap we had in the early to late-eighties/early 90s with the PAF.
Our chaps have fought PAF in 1965 when they had the best of US radars and aircraft.We did not even have advanced AAMs in 1965 or radar sights that the Pakis had.
This is not to say that the blood and guts stuff is enough.
But,IAF even at current inventory vis-a-vis PAF packs quite a punch esp in Helos and airlift.
In fact the Pakis often bemoan that we howl at barely double digit F-16s they acquire, ignoring the wave of our own acquisitions.Jf-17s the Pakis well know is only preferable because the yanks will gift them only as much and buying latest western aircraft in numbers is beyond PAFs budget The jf-17s pakis are getting is only due to long term deep credit given by the Chinese.
Whats the point in spending so much when there will be no war in the coming time..Every problem will have diplomatic solution(even if India wud be on the losing side)bcoz the Govt. seriously lacks any spine(not even 1% of Indira Gandhi or Vajpayee Govt.)to give an answer to the aggressors. They have put us in a habit of losing our dignity and courage. They shud drop the idea of defence and make paper planes..
Good report shiv.
Is that your photo?
IAF > PAF
IAF VS PAF:
-Su30MKI Flanker H > FC-20 Vanguard
-Mig29B(upgrade RD-33OVT)> F16C/D Block52
-HAL TEJA > JF-17 Thunder
-Mig-21 Bison > F-7 Skybolt
-Mirage 2000H > Mirage III & 5
INDIAN AIR FORCE IS POWERFUL AND DOMINANT OVER PORKISTANI AIR FORCE. LOL
The plane of the Indian government has been executed correctly. Not that India is in a bat situation, our government will go ahead and purchase of-shelf defense products which are tagged with SCAM. This is happening for ages nothing new….
Congress party is really fishy, there has not been any fast movements of defense procurement with NCP running the show. On top of all SCAMS and now Shiv is freak us out with some untold truth.
agree n disagree
pak has more aircraft mounted weapons which r tried n tested by us gien to them, around 100 tommahawks have been rumored to have been passed on on the name of fighting the taliban
and arams etc they r gettin awacs too even though inferior
threat is not from their air force but as someone mentioned by the other countries supplying aircraft's n piots……..n equipment, Saudis have an agreement to even give third awacs for use
but still, we will never have a long war with pak in the coming future.
china is a big concern though
ur naive
Even after allocating 10+ billion for MRCA, 5+ billon for C17, 2+ billion on AWACS and a few more billions on hercules, we are still loosing edge to pakistan?
How much more do we need to spend to stay ahead of a small country like pakistan?
I would like to say that such sort of assessments and judgments by the media are half baked and based on incomplete information. I am sure no one can access the complete picture except the AF itself. Generally its the tendency of the media to build a story around a some statement made off the cuff by some irresponsible or disgruntled officer. Its like building house around a Tap. Such sort of reviews and documentaries clearly undermine the professionalism of our Air Force. You are forgetting that the edge of IAF was much worse in 1965 or 1971. PAF had the Sabre on its side. We had our own Gnat or Ajeet. But we had the PAK running for their lives. Have you forgotten Nirmaljit Singh Sekhon or Trevor Keeler. At the end its the man behind the machine that matters. The best example is during kargil war, when the Mirages went out on CAP they were able to see on their radar Aircrafts on the other side idle. We shot down a intruder spy plane with a MIG 21. Why did not Pakistan react. What the program was not clear is where is it we are loosing the edge. Numerical superiority may not account at all when you have high technology at your disposal. I read a comment about Naval aviation being sc****. I guess these guys should brief themselves before passing such comments. With the Induction of MIG 29N Indian navy has capacity to go and hit targets in Australia or the beyond Gulf of Aden. Yes numbers are a matter of concern but only temporary. Let not such irresponsible and immature TV programs demoralize our forces. If you not able to contribute to the betterment of the force let it be so. But dont contribute to demoralsing of the Forces.
LOL…Don't a mountain out of a molehill Shiv. I'm a Pakistani and I'm getting the feeling this report produced in conjunction with the arm's suppliers to squeeze the balls of the IAF into making more impulsive purchases.
Pakistan ko choro aur cheen ki fikar karo.
PS: Love the "dishum dishum" style of your reports.
Mediocre show. Good enough for ordinary people to rile up and agree to import more foreign fighters. In reality, there is nothing that can be done except waste money on weapons. If 282 Sukhois can not bring INDIA peace than I wonder what will. The parity between both airforces is one more reason not to fight.
@ Anon, 7 13 AM
A very valid question.
When it comes to defence purchases , due to a clear and lethal mindset. , pak politicians have always taken better decisions.
Indian politicians have not only taken weak but slow decisions and again implementation has taken years. MMRCA is a live circus show that is going on for years. MMRCA is URGENT looking at current chinese presence and aggressive behavior in north east but it is stil lgoing on snails pace.
Our IAF chief is busy distributing awards to world cup winners but he has no time to pressurize the indian politicos to decide fast on MMRCA.
Paks acquisition of T-80UD tanks was an example of good decision taken by pak politicos. It was fast implemented and send shivers down indian army. they went on shopping spree of 1. T-90s, 2. Anti tank missiles, mines and what not. Reactive defence not pro active defence. pak politicos have always provided better weapons to their forces .
But india has still not learnt from its history. Time and again the armoured cataphract cavalry of Mohhammed ghori defeated us but we had no answer to it.
Nobody cares ultimately its a waste of time to discuss all this we all know that its all about money not about national security.
i will watch and post here,
A 2 minute story has been stretched to half hour stuff. Shiv you do much much better. At least you could have done put a chart comparing the capabilities of Mig29,Sukhois 30MKI versus Porki Teens.
Its one of those half truth things.
Are we losing the edge? Yes, the PAF with BVRMs and AWACS now can think of challenging IAF strike packages in the air.
But that sentence does not communicate the above scenario. What most people will understand from "IAF losing its edge to PAF" will translate into "PAF better than IAF now"
With more aircraft, more capability, better training, the IAF looks poised to not only decimate the PAF in a shooting match, it will also strongly influence the ground war.
Its one of those half truth things.
Are we losing the edge? Yes, the PAF with BVRMs and AWACS now can think of challenging IAF strike packages in the air.
But that sentence does not communicate the above scenario. What most people will understand from "IAF losing its edge to PAF" will translate into "PAF better than IAF now"
With more aircraft, more capability, better training, the IAF looks poised to not only decimate the PAF in a shooting match, it will also strongly influence the ground war.
I read the report in the Headlines Today this morning. Nothing that was not known or surprising in this report. Pretty tame stuff.
Relative strength of countries is like the stock market. One moments value of index does not define the life time performance of a portfolio. Similarly the current state coupled with the probability of war does not mean anything.
There is enough for deterrence. Transitions are tough but have to be gone through.
People speak of Saudi AWACS. I am not from the armed forces but logic tells me that if you have not practiced with this equipment it may not be of much use. It can't be like a Lego block that can be fitted hours or days before a war.
@Anon11:28,
Pak politicians have nothing to do with Pakistani Defence Matters.They probably do not even know what the true budget of the Pak forces is.Pakistan is dominated by its army and all decisions taken by it are determined by its forces.Pakistani arms procurement is also determined by the military aid it receives from the USA and China.Without aid from USA and long term credit and finance from China the Pak forces would be in a very different shape.The Jf-17 line is entirely bankrolled by the Chinese. Pakistani Civil politicians have nothing really to do with it.India as a parliamentary democracy has to traverse a different route.Unfortunately we have too many procedure and civilians dominate the process.But,there is a flip side to it too.India throughout out the 80 and 90s starved it forces of Budget and concentrated it effort on economic growth and liberalization.This has enable a rapidly growing Indian economy of today which is an essential element of a county's power.Pakistan as we can well see is in ruin and chaos due to its overwhelming quest to achieve parity with India on everything.It is dependent on foreign aid and the IMF.In its quest to match India it will ultimately ruin herself or lag behind,which it has already started to do.What we need is to streamline our procedures and the rest will follow.
Shiv,
Why this report now?
Pak has been in the process of buying AWACS for quite a few years now. Same goes for its M109A5 Howitzers from US. Naval ships from Cheen with good Anti Ship missiles such as C 602/802/and Harpoons from US. Upgrades to Mirage III/IV with fuel probes should have indicated the subsequent induction of IL78s from Eastern Europe. PAF inducted AIM 120 a while ago. That event in itself would have nullified any BVR advantage that IAF enjoyed. Pak has also bought the Italian SAM system Spada. It has been modernizing its forces for quite some time now.
So what changed suddenly?
On a different note – on recent flight from Pune a few days earlier I noticed that that none of the Sukois on the tarmac had even a shade over them for protection against the scorching heat yet the IAF has been issuing tenders or RFI left and right to buy sophisticated stuff. This worries me, shouldn’t they take care of what they have now rather than order more fancy stuff. Imagine a pilot getting into one of those cockpits around noon……..a BUM FRIER for sure. Heck I care more about my car than IAF seems to care about its top notch fighter.
CecX Fable & Gas
Seems like a real concern…
But again, when did Indian Air force have a technological advantage over Pakistan? What we had was the numerical and strategic advantage. And hear the news person say about the defensive role of PAF in the past. I have always heard only about the offensive role PAF played. And to a great extend the lack of proper defense was the reason IAF gained supremacy over PAF in the past.
Any way we need to concentrate more on getting better technology and numbers for IAF. or else we will be wearing the loosers hat as pakis did in 65 and 71.
this looks typical again, why is it that after every couple of years there is a ruckus about indian armed forces losing edge over pakistan and in that name billions and billions are again spent? i dont know why the report is so biased but the truth is india has been acquiring weaponry starting 2000 that has made india worlds largest importers and spenders of current times. by 2020, india will again spend about 200+$ billion dollars to acquire more weapons. the report paints IAF as having nothing, but here is what indian forces are already getting, can somebody justify this and then cry about all this shortage? 126 MRCA known to swell to 200+, hawks jets, basic trainers, LCA with us engines, 3+3 phalcons, EU or US air refuelers (in line) 8+4 P8s, 6+6 C130s, 10+6 C17s, Apache gunships, transport helos, utility helos, light helos for northern areas, UAVs from israel, SAM systems from israel and russia, tanks, ballistic missiles, light wight artillery guns from singapore or US, scoepeans for navy, russian n-subs, air craft carriers with mig 29s, PMF aka PAK FA in about 300 numbers, frigates, radars, nuclear deals, space satellites etc etc.
please read reports by sipri and other research think tanks on worlds biggest military spenders. AM singh rightly pointed out that indian gov has never declined armed forces any requests just that the procedures are lengthy which is the reason here not that armed forces arent getting anything.
you can literally name anything made on earth that india is not bent on acquiring. For gods sakes, this is unexampled crying every 2 years. what is jus left on earth that india does not want or is not in process of getting? name me one thing mr.shiv aroor or anyone.
Quick clarification for those who think this is my projection. This is a presentation that was made in January by the IDS to the MoD. I'll be putting it up here shortly.
It appears that we just missed one of the most important part of presentation, the DWINDLING SUBMARINE FLEET. The report mentions that submarine fleet can effectively go down to 5. sent the chill down my spine. forget china we can't tackle pak navy. And why is scorpene sub getting late by 3-4 years?
I think we opted for Air Independent Propulsion(AIP) only in response to Pak Augosta class sub equipped with AIP. Again a reactive decision.
on the other side of this debate, just think of a scenario where Chinese nuclear Subs (atleast 2)being based out of COCO island in Burma, and Indian Navy wid only 5 subs left to defend Bay of Bengal, Arabian Ocean & Indian Ocean.
Just go & read DRAGONFIRE by Humphrey Hawksley
AWAITING IT EAGERLY HOPE IT IS AS GOOD AS THE HYPE IT HAS CREATED TIME TO PUT THOES OLD GREYS IN ACTION ONCE AGAIN. BRING IT ON.
@Anon 4:09.
In fact that is what is really putting the wind up Pakistan's A**.Now the IAF ,is not only numerically superior but also growing leaps and bounds qualitatively.
IAF in 1965 flew twice the sorties of PAF and in 71 almost thrice. IAF lost a lot of air-craft to ground fire in both these wars.Compared to PAF, IAF has supported its forces much more.Its the IAF which has been on offensive rather than then PAF.They simply had little option.I still think the PAF is ultimately also let down by the tyranny of geography.The IAF (lets not forget the IN air arm too)has more strategic options and depth than Pak thanks to our size and geography.
If India needs to be "deeply worried " about a crumbling Pakistan then what exactly should we be feeling towards the Chinese???
Words like "….that comfort is history, gone…." i mean for real, what are you talking about?
India's best (140+ Su30 MKIs) have zero chances of beating Paks best (couple dozen F16s)?
Why dont you ask the most important question?
For how many days can Pak financially support a full fledged war with India before it goes bankrupt again or looses international financial aid?
Sensational stories will get you TRPs a balanced one wont.
Indian media – melodramatic as ever!
The IAF has a habit of twisting facts to suit its needs. The report makes it appear that only the MoD is resoponsible for the state of affairs. It just cannot be true. The IAF has a lot of explaining to do to the Indian public.
What is the ratio of expenditure in the case of IAF and PAF. The capability should also be in the same ratio. Otherwise the IAF is screwing up.
It has reached a stage where the IAFs credibility has reached a new low. If they do not get their act together, there will be serious damage to the country.
After this report of yours, I have serious concerns about your objectivity.
Shiv, where is all the money going if the edge is eroding. We should hold somebody accountable if we are pouring resources down the drain.
The IAF can no longer escape responsibility for its statements or controlled leaks. The time has come to call their bluff.
I think people just didn't get the point..The report in MOD isn't saying that we have lost edge to PAK,rather the gap that we maintained earlier,is reducing faster than ever.The main concern is the depleting fighter jet strength.In last 10 years,we have added only sukhoi-30 to our IAF,and that too at terribly slow rate,earlier just 12 a year and now 14 a year.Whatever PAK is getting now,we already have it but again not in the overwhelming quantity.Now if our force level is such against pak,then how are we gonna tackle China.So its just to pressurize MOD(Mr AK) to finalize deals faster and keep china in mind when you are defining strategies.
IAF has already reached a stage where thinking Indians will look suspiciously at whatever they say.
They make it appear as if the MoD or DRDO or HAL are letting the country down, but they are perfect. For a service that has not supported indigenous efforts as much as they should have done, they cry too much. For a beginning let them explain to the Indian public how they have used all the precious funds in the last ten years.
Hi Shiv, Keep up the good reporting, all we can do is to pressure the politicians to make quick desicions for the defense forces, get the best weapons available and increase private partnership in R&D & buidling up our defense forces. We need to build up our own lockhead martin's & General Dynamics & BAE etc…
And increase the pay to private sector levels for Armed Forces & organisations like DRDO, ISRO, & others..
If PAF is a threat, one can imagine what a threat the PLAAF (China) poses!!!
What a load of crap. This is tabloid style garbage on the Indian defence forces. INDIA IS DOOMED!! THE PAKs are COMMING!!
Get real.
Cujo
these kind of media reports are fed time to time by defense contractors to create panic and get juicy contracts.. all the media companies are into it…
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2665666/posts
Shiv could you pls inform us when you're gonna post the report about j-20 ?
Isn't it more important to focus on our economy and improving the level of R&D and education rather than competing against other air forces.
We have probably the 4th or 5th best air force in the world. We could partner up with other nations and improve our technology instead of worrying about what planes our opposition have.
The time has come that we should compare with the Red Dragon China. Pakistan is under effervescence.
yar,the guys sitting there ar not dumb.leave their job to them,and shiv bhai dont shatter the morale of indian armed forces.its the attitude that counts others are just no
This report is like the "boy who cried wolf". Bloggers before me have said pretty much what I wanted to say. Cheap ploy by IAF to milk our taxpayers and thereby fill the pockets of powers that be thru kickbacks from such expensive acquisitions. We need to check our defense expenditure which is in far excess to our education and health budget.
Winston Churill had said that Empires of the future will be Empires of the mind. You cannot create such Empires without health, education and fulfilling people's basic needs. There are more poor people in India than entire Sub Saharan Africa.
Hi Shiv,
Why haven't you posted any news on our Army Chief trying to extend his term with fake birth certificates? The earlier Chief is accused of bribery and corruption. It gives me shivers to know that "defense" of our country is in the hands of such guys.
Aaahhh!!! Help!! f-16s over my house….Oops! sorry, were only house flies….
Is the IAF anxious about the J-17s ?
Are they concerned about the F-16s ?
Washing dirty linen in pubic is surely not going to help them in handling PAF. Let them learn to respect the other arms of the Government first. We have had enough of their whining.
The IAF makes lots of efforts to manage the media. But they are ending up looking worse at the end of it all.
A little humility will do them a lot of good. The attention they got in the last few years seems to be going to their head.
thats rubish.
RAFs EFs havent yet upgraded to trach2 block 15, what makes EF a true multirole aircraft. + UK is not in hurry they have the tornados.
Hi Guys,
Please check the above mentioned post on you tube, for more information.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=IAF+losing+edge+over+PAF&aq=f
Thanks,
-Shree
I totally agree with the point that IAF should buy the AESA equipped F-16s which are much cheaper than the heavier rafales and typhoons and equally capable and can be inducted much faster than any of the other fighters in contention for MMRCA.together with LCA MK-2 the entire Mig fleet along with some Jaguars can be replaced in the coming decade.
I've said very often that India is doomed! The next war will see joint China-Pak action over India, and India is NOT PREPARED to fight a war on two fronts.
Simply said, Indians can't fight, plan, or strategise, but they are darn good at frittering their integrity away!
By the time India wakes up to war, it's roads will be blocked because its 1.3 billion idiots simply sleep on the roads (read warpath); by the time it clears its roads (read mind), China will be in Kolkata and Pakistan in Chandigarh!
India doesn't have a chance! Should I feel sorry for India? Well, I'm not going to!
@Anon 2:33,
Don't worry.
China has only one thing on its mind,self-interest.
China see pakis as a convenient b***ch and uses its as such to keep India off balance.For the Pakis were never anything beyond it.
The problem for them is that Paki antics are leading themselves on a self-destruct mode.Without Uncle Sam and the Chinese to bail them out ,Pakis are nothing.Additionaly paki have got so used to begging,that they get real lost without any of these bog two daddies along.As far as China is concerned out strategy must be to keep enough forces for them. I still do not think Pak-china joint action is a feasibilty,not by history at least.Though the chinese will do their best to keep paki propped up.The problem for them is that paki are now started to lag so far behind India that keeping them up with India is becoming a big problem. The Pakis i would not worry so much,save for the odd idiotic thing they launch whenever things get problematic at home for them or a paki general wants to show the paki people he has some ba**s.As long as we keep ourselves at reasonable levels,we should be OK.
What crap!! Take a presentation and over hype it… Boy!! 1:1.6 numbers ratio isnt the correct picture look at the quality of the inventory(except the Block 52 F16s in the Paki inventory) what are we comparing just numbers or a reality check of the quantitative-qualitative mix… I believe we should take a mix yes the Paki airforce has improved but well India isnt far behind.. we have had a lost decade in the 90s (sadly due to lack of political will) and now we are making up.. dont look at 2012 lo0k at 2020 with the sukhoi squads completely in place, the 5th gen stealth fighter (Russia-India) in and then the MMRCA completely in place + the upgraded MIG 29s, Jags + the LCA number (atleast above 200: Im optimistic) + more AWACS (Falcons)… What are u saying Mr Shiv Aroor….. Enough of media hype to boost TRPs
IAF's desperate tactic to somehow catalyze the MMRCA shortlist. nothing else.
this is pure Scare mongering and i didnt expect this from HT, this reminds me of how US defense industry spread false rumors about the "bomber gap" with Russia during the height of the cold war