In the early November meeting between Expenditure Secretary Sushama Nath and the three service chiefs, a presentation was made by the services side stressing on the “historical equations” between a Lt Col and NFSG pay scales back from the 3rdPC. It was also indicated during the presentation that fitment for Lt Cols given by the 6thPC was equal to S-25 and higher than S-24 scales, based on existing scales.
The chiefs pointed to the iniquity thereby introduced between Lt Col and Superintendent Engineers and Commandants in the Paramilitary Forces since the latter had a pre-revised scale of Rs 14,300-18,300 as against a Lt Col who had a pre-revised scale of Rs 15,100-18,700. The chiefs made it a point to emphasise that Lt Cols, though superior in scales, are “functionally on par with Supdt Engrs”. Therefore, they said, there was no reason why a Lt Col must not be accomodated in Payband-4, especially when civil counterparts with inferior scales had been moved into that payband.
Army chief General Deepak Kapoor and Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta then spoke about the “functional problems” in the Army apropos Assam Rifles and Central Paramiliary Forces, and between the Navy and the Coast Guard respectively with regard to command and control issues. They pointed out that as civil officers who were inferior in pay scales to Lt Col, they had been granted higher pay band and grades pay than a Lt Col and, in fact, equal to a Colonel.
Once the presentation was finished, Expenditure Secretary Sushama Nath said that the arugments about Rank Pay discussed earlier “equally apply in this case”. She also said that the services viewpoint on Rank Pay would be conveyed to Pranab Mukherjee.
Next, she mentioned that were standing objections from the Paramilitary Forces against placing Lt Cols in PB-4. According to sources, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor almost lost his cool at this stage. With visible irritation, he is understood to have said that such an attitude was negative and the Paramiltiary forces had no business commenting on the legitimate requirements of the armed forces. Mentioning the “incorrect and misleading” equation of Lt Col with Second-in-Command of the CPMFs, Gen Kapoor further stressed that replacement scales had to be determined on pre-revised scales as had been done by successive pay commissions and not based on appointments/ranks/posts/badges of rank etc. This part of the meeting was rounded off with Admiral Mehta saying that there was no option before the government but to place Lt Cols in PB-4.
Photo by Shiv Aroor / LiveFist / Pranab Mukherjee and then COAS Gen JJ Singh in Pokhran, 2005
Dear Shiv
when will we get over this lady and start deliberating with GOM
we have no faith o her
In fact she has no right in these deliberations as she at first place is the culprit of this anamoly
Dear Shiv,
What is the nett Outcome?Where is the case today?When is the final report is expected?Any news?
Dear Shiv, A great post and much needed input for all. It appears that Mrs Nath has a mental block and a very poor personal agenda. She does not seem to have enough wisdom as to the enormity of dangerous damage she is doing by her poor foresight. Any how GoM is wise enough to decide what is right. Mrs nath must be chucked out from that sensitive portfolio to drive the message home to a handful of Secretaries for whom it has become a personal game and they just can not understand that it is their own defense forces whom they are treating so badly right under the nose of some puppet politicians.
Wait for orders, gentlemen.
Whatever happens, its a good idea to keep the powder dry.
Take deep breaths – it arrests the tendency to self-flagellate.
That must have been some sight. Not many have seen the COAS lose his cool.
None of the other three core demands will be met. The govt has decided to wait for Election Commission’s model code of conduct to kick on. After that, the next govt will look into the grievances. goodbye pay. goodbye parity. rest in peace all.
this sushama nath is getting on the nerves would have loved to see coas give her a dressing down.is she dealing with pak army or indian army she may like to answer that to her self befour going to sleep tonight???***@@##.
Dear All,
I beg to differ..and I feel Govt will agree to all demands ..only factor is The Time i.e. when …:-)
I feel just befor election..thay will agree all demands and possibly will give more than what has been asked so far.
Reason..Cong would like not like to miss to encash this huge group “Indian Military personnel and their families” to get their simpathy to turn around the result in the forth coming elections..also i feel that the balance of arrears would also be paid as lumpsome to get the feeling/emotion and get a positive result in election..just like we are seeing BJP?Safron colored Terrorist issue coverage and flooded in media,newspaper just before state elections…and shows all past other terrosrist issues are not an issue even gone to back burner…
Jist is when Govt has to pay the armed forces any way, their legitamate demands…why not pay all these just before the election..to get good response from HUGE serving and retired military personnel in their side ?
All politcts man ..JUST FOR POLITICS ONLY.
Jai Hind
Salary & Govt. Concessions for a Member of Parliament (MP)
Monthly Salary : 12,000
Expense for Constitution per month : 10,000
Office expenditure per month : 14,000
Traveling concession (Rs. 8 per km) : 48,000 ( eg.For a visit from
kerala to Delhi & return: 6000 km)
Daily DA TA during parliament meets : 500/day
Charge for 1 class (A/C) in train: Free (For any number of times)
(All over India )
Charge for Business Class in flights : Free for 40 trips / year (With wife or P.A.)
Rent for MP hostel at Delhi : Free
Electricity costs at home : Free up to 50,000 units
Local phone call charge : Free up to 1 ,70,000 calls.
TOTAL expense for a MP [having no qualification] per year : 32,00,000
[i.e. 2.66 lakh/month]
TOTAL expense for 5 years : 1,60,00,000
For 534 MPs, the expense for 5 years :
8,54,40,00,000 (nearly 855 crores)
AND THE PRIME MINISTER IS ASKING THE HIGHLY QUALIFIED, OUT PERFORMING
CEOs TO CUT DOWN THEIR SALARIES?..To top it all NO PB-4 for LT COLs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is how all our tax money is been swallowed and price hike on our regular commodities. ……
And this is the present condition of our country:
855 crores could make their life livable !!
Think of the great democracy we have…….. ……
PLEASE FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO ALL WARRIORS ….
but,
STILL Proud to be A FAUJI
Thank you for updating us and bringing out the personal vendetta of a short sighted ladt against the forces.I think we have had enough of her and she needs to be shown her place. If she considers the objections raised by paramilitary forces so legitimate that she has guts to make a mention in such a gathering then i think there should be no government and every other dept /service should decide as to what should each other be paid. Also did she take their consent for deciding salary for her own cadre. Its high time she is taken to a mental hospital and treated for insanity.
THAT WAS GREAT – COULD WE GET SUSMA NATHS BREAKDOWN OF EXPENSES PLEASE
Isn’t this dame the wife of a Brigadier who fought tooth and nail, for his next rank, in the courts. A RIMCO I think.
It is quite clear that “Delay and Deny” is the core agenda of the GoM with Mrs. Nath as the scapegoat. All of you Please understand that the GoM has already decided not to accept any of the 3 demands. So who is going to bell this cat? The three chiefs should now make their stand clear. The GoM is not going to make any announcement.
The Chiefs should simply prefer the pay vouchers on old scale then. And please, no resignations, we are here to fight not run away!
Hey, it is like those saas (Sushama Nath) bahu (Armed Forces) with papaji, etc (GoM) looking on impotently!
Wonder if the saas or the bahu will marry the same man (no pun, yaar) and get the property!!
Some entertainment now that the saas-bahu serials have ceased on TV.
A Rimco, whats his name, I might know.
and Shiv why have photos of Pranab da and JJ been put, one is ex-Minister and the other ex-Chief
The very line, “she mentioned that there were standing objections from the Paramilitary Forces against placing Lt Cols in PB-4” smells that there is something fishy.
Mind you this lady is a puppet and acting on someone’s direction who seems to powerful in the present govt ( such as FM ). Otherwise as a ex-Secretary of 6th cpc she also knows that pay is fixed based on pre-revised scales and not on appoinments. Chiefs must refuse to deal with this lady ( the real culprit behind all this will issue irresponsible statements out of irritation ) thereby exposing the nexus.
The rimco must be ‘Nath’ assuming she uses her husband’s name.
I heard somewhere that Ms Nath is DG BSF spouse
Good grief!
Don’t tell me there are more claimants.
Sorry.
In bad taste.
what she said is absolutely correct. don’t make bloody false claims…If this is allowed, they will add MSP to basic and say they are equivalent to joint secretary for 7th pay commission.
well this used to be her salary at one time.You may calculate the present salary.Just follow the link
http://finmin.nic.in/the_ministry/dept_expenditure/rtiman/perdivision/salarydetail.xls
cause for our problems
http://www.realpolitik.in/2008/May%2008/IPS.htm
Waat saar, u mean (saary no pun saar)Palaniswamy Chidambaram Chettiar is the man who makes that kathputli dance to his ragam?
aaiyyo aaiyyo waat days have come saar!!
He can say direct no? but sadde sardarji di himmat nu ki hoya? amricaka de vich chhad ke aagaye?
lame ass
who?
Dear Anon @ 8:48,
Do you feel that you can terrorise the true friend of Armed Forces like this openly and get away? You are being watched, my dear. Shiv is doing a great job and let him continue the job he is good at; exposing you suckers. You and your bosses days are numbered now. Don’t get frightened if you are woken up some day by the law enforcing agencies, especially Cyber cell officials. Just continue your threats now. It gives enough material to book you. Don’t worry about Shiv. There are many on this blog itself who would be up to give a helping hand to Shiv to help him overcome from the shit that you Babooz have put him. Don’t get surprized if you too find yourself in the same place within couple of months. Have guts to give your name in your comments rather than commenting like HIZRAs. BTW, I have your IP address noted with me. Enjoy till you are caught up.
[email protected]
what a sick mind?Get well soon.
Shiv get well soon and stop commenting anonymously here.
Haha what a loser. I can see the level of desperation.
Anon at 8.48 pm is none other than Shiv, as he’s out of his mind these days, and needs rest. Shiv please don’t up names of girls atleast.
Whyre the chiefs even wasting their time with this minion?
@ anony @8.48
you are a sick man. it is an insult even to reply back to u. u seem to be a person in the same profession as aroor and may be u not doing as well as him. u r a sick bastard who needs to be kicked on butt in public. if u have guts u will post the comments with ur ID u filthy mind.
Shiv please stop commenting anonymously like above. It doesn’t suit you.
and it bloody suits a coward like u to poste ur filthy mind out on this blog.
@[email protected]
You are either a Hizra as rightly pointed above or u are a pimp with stinking mind.I know the comments made by u don’t deserve to be answered but still a dog has to be warned atleast once to stop barking lest he is kicked on his butt..
Let Shiv react and take action, why are you all barking for no reason.Has he appointed you his agents/pimps?
He seems to have no problem, thats why no moderator, no delete button, nothing. He’s cool, looks like.
Please do not use foul language and degrade your self. Brief, simple, polite, firm and affirmative language has vast power.
Never mind if the matter is left for the next Govt….But there should be no Compromise…time should be on Armed forces side and not on the side of IAS…that should be understood otherwise Forces will end up loosing things..
Without referring to any GoM or any announcements the PBOR isuue stand resolved..orders have been passed..
All issues will be resolved in like manner and orders passed quitely…No win no losing…Goverment will functions as it deems fit…
Have faith on Chiefs….
Then why is everyone talking about mutiny and being on the streets, if the Chiefs are to be trusted?
And will the Chiefs be able to tackle Nath?
Everything is fine, but Hon. Expenditure secretary, BSc, LLB (third Class) saying that The CPOs have objections is but sickening and laughable…
Unbelieable that the Govt and Cab Secy can put such a sick mind on Pay commission effecing the Rozi Roti of the million as member Secretary…
I do not know why hon Cab Secy is adament on showing and display of IAS ligeries and Kachhhas in Public…
Chalo more the marrier….
Who is Sushma Nath? Some important lady?
IPS and all All India and Class A Services have violant objections to what ever IAS has done for itself..
Army have raised valid objections to DGP being upgraded which is valid…
As per logic of Mrs Nath…every thing then must be raised to objections and not merit …
Let us have satus quo ante…evn then Lt Col will be paid more than a director…
Chit bhi meri pat bhi meri…Ayessa Anyaya mat Karo…
Dear IAS Friends,
I deem it to be very wise and correct decision of GoM to refer the matter to Shushma Nath as she is origin of all the problem…
It is much better and honorable that the Madame puts things in order and she acceeds to the demend of the Forces…
Then the GoM and the PM will not be forced to let down IAs lobby and give justice to forces..
Forces will thank Sushma nath as also the govt..IAS will also thank the Govt to have provided them a chance to retrieve some faith completely lost by them..
At that level it does not refelect well on Shri Chandra Sekhar and Madame to appear outightly Unionist and partisans..
It is in no ones interest…Not in the Interest of the Nation, Congress party, IAS and Armed Forces…
Pass cool orders one by one and let us burry the knives…enough is enough..
@Shiv,
In your post the service chief’s are reported to be relying on history to establish equivalence between Lt colonels and Civilian officers of the rank of NFSG/Directors/Superintending Engineers. I really don’t know if they are ignorant or are being misinformed by their advisors.If history is to be relied upon, please go back to transition from East India Company to British Crown. Chesney in his reforms during 1853 had recommended two grades for superintending engineers who were to take over civil works from the then Military Board. These two grades of superintending engineer were to be established, according to the type of district under their jurisdiction. A district with major construction projects, for example, canal, road and cantonment construction was to command the rank of colonel and the second grade was to command the rank of lieutenant colonel.
Immediately after independence in 1948 MoD had issued equivalence between service ranks and corresponding civil ranks. While accepting edge in pay for armed forces it ruled functional parity as under:-
AGE -Capt – AEE/JTS
GE -Maj – EE/STS
CWE -Lt Col – SE/JAG
Please don’t jump to conclusions and note there existed only one grade for SE at this time who were in JAG grade. Yes, it is true that Lt Cols were at functional parity with civilian SEs but only till the time SEs were in JAG grade. With increase in responsibility levels as envisaged by Chesney way back in 1853, Army started posting Cols as CWEs. On civil side also a new grade for SEs was introduced. The new grade of SEs was in NFSG (i.e equivalent of Director in civil parlance).
Having said that the issue of PB4 for Lt Colonels has two dimensions, firstly – higher pay for service officers for difficult working conditions, short service career etc. etc. and secondly – status parity.
There is no denying that the people in services deserve better compensation compared to their counterparts in civil employment for reasons discussed in length on this blog and elsewhere. Successive pay commissions have accordingly maintained the edge in pay scales for defence personnel. Certain other allowances and facilities are also granted to armed forces on account of special and unique service conditions ( The amount of these compensations may be a matter of debate) . It is also simultaneously true that their can be no direct one to one comparison between the two categories based on pay drawn/pay scales. Both categories have distinct responsibilities/ duties and no direct comparison based on pay drawn is possible and should therefore not be attempted. The pay scales of armed forces (With or without rank pay) therefore cannot be and should not be determinants for the responsibility levels in an organisation.
A functional parity, however could be drawn for organisations where both the service officers and civilian officers work together (viz. MoD/ Integerated HQs of MoD(Army/Navy/AF) , BRO, CDA, DGQA, Naval Armt Service, MES, Survey of India etc. With sound logic and historical perspective presented above it translates into functional parity between Lt Col/SE(OG)/Jt Dir/JAG and Col/SE(SG)/NFSG/Dir.
I hope it clears the clouds form the issue to a reasonable extent and remove the bias from your reporting.
Before indiependence, a Major was much above the DC and SP in the districts..
A Lt col could be equated only by by Class A officer of the 20 years service..
A Maj Gen could only be equated by a Class A officer of 28 years service…
C in C was second only after the Vice Roy….
Let us go back to pre Independence status….
MES..BRO…IDAS…AFHQSC…Survey..BRO…CCS..etc…including MoD peons…
Are you the main Cadre for the govt or Mod or the Armed Forces Cadre is main Cadre and you all auxillary cadres…????
You want to suprcede the main services and main cadre…
The functional relations will be entirely upset…
How will the Country and organusation function then??? just because you want more cuts, power and lord over the main Cadre…..
How can MoD then run….???
then you might as well have a fauz of peons….
Sonia Gandhi was addressing a vast rally in Amritsar with another Punjabi Congressman by her side.
She said “India has the beauty of the East, brains of the South, the will of the West and virility of the North. If we combine these, we can rule the world.”
There was complete silence as no one from the crowd understood a word of all this.
At this point the Punjabi congressman remarked to Sonia ji, “Madam, may I translate this so that my people can understand?”
Sonia ji agreed.
He stood up to the mike and said:
“Madam Ji Kehndin Hain, Saade Desh Kol,
Bengal Di Phuddi Hai, Madras Di Budhhi Hai,
Bumbai Da Mann Hai, Te Punjab Da Lunn Hai.
Agar Eh Saarian Cheezan Mila Dittian Jaan, Ta Assi Saari Duniya Di Bund Maar Lawange!”
A thunderous standing ovation followed !!
@rds
Nobody is giving history lessons to the IAS. Least of all the chiefs.
“…replacement scales had to be determined on pre-revised scales as had been done by successive pay commissions and not based on appointments/ranks/posts/badges of rank etc.”
The issue therefore is not merely of correcting the wrong of the CoS but also punishing the concerned civil servants for the perfidy.
[email protected] AM shiv was kind enough to delete yesterday’s ur filthy post. the second post today abundantly displayes the rotten vains in ur mind. u urgently need a doc (a vet, u must not forget). u have been posting some cell number on this blog. if u have s*…. in ur b*.., post ur cell no here. but i also know that cowards like u do not have courage to reveal their identity. u keep hiding behind this anony, u ba*….., and enjoy the fruits if new IT age. i am sure u will be repaid in the same coin not very far in future and the curse of such a large number of people will have its way. enjoy what ever good time u have.
@ anon 1058
I agree.
Chandrashekhar, Shushma Nath aur tamaam CoS ka Narco test karaao.
‘5B’ ki bhi jaroorat pad sakti hai.
Shushma par 5B kaise lagaigaa?
Shiv,
Who is this Subedar saheb with Pranav da?
Shushma ought to be charged under sec 420 and NSA.
Dear Shiv,
What about the real issue ? Lt gen DGP parity??
The real cause of Purohit and Army facing ire of ATS Bombay and DGP Maharashtra…??? they have turned super efficient with Director IB…
The IPS seems to have lost their senses..they want to project Army as greater evil in Indian Polity than the politised and corrupt Police..every day briefing is focus on Purohit and some media channels seems to be getting paid now by Crayons……for the constant advertisement…
Cryons do not need a theme for the campaign now….this has been adopted as the theme… from “India Shinig” to “Purohit Shining”….Cryaon moves.. From Let Down BJP to Let Down Congress…
larger part of Crayon Rs 150 crores seems to be diverted on Purohit….Army Lt Col… Even Geobles must be astonished in his grave with this “Spin”…..
Has our political system come to that stage….????
Ranjan Bargotra, President, Crayons, who has been awarded Rs 150 Crore for political Campign for the congress said,
“Political advertising has definitely come of age in India. There will be no more posters and slogans. The campaigns will be much more evolved and professional. Political parties have realised the importance of advertising and started appointing specialists for the same.”
The effects of Bargotra specialisation are evident… However, there are grave risks fo such campaigning Mr Bargotra….
What is 5B?
5b is the section under army act that is used in lieu of narco test!
Shiv,
Please delete all references to 5B in you blog.
Can any one check on the wealth owned by this lady???
Prasun sengupta, where r you??????
Now that it is Known that Sushma Naths husband is an IPS officer (on deputation to rule the BSF)it all falls in to place. For personal gains she has been bickering (can’t use a stronger word here)in the coridoors of South block and leaking information to the PMF/CPOs and inciting them to create a problem. This is called subversion of the Armed forces and she must be dealt with under the IPC. The MI should check her antecedents and ‘leak’ info to the press.
oh God….
This is personal agenda of Madame Shusu… the BSF Bhabi…
No wonder…..Things understood but this is how the Govt can not run…
No wonder the GoM is giving her an opportunity to save her honour….
What honour?
Initially, when the issue of PB4 was raised Headlines Today and other TV channels were very active. Now there is almost no news on any of the TV channels . why is such a sensor?
@annony 9.55
aap itna bhi nahin samjhe IAS ke samne sabki pha…. hai. IAS must have told all the channel to keep quite on army issue.
arre yaar GOM tak to sushma nath ke thru kaam kar raha hai
By not placing a Lt Col in PB4 the govt. is ensuring that 80% Army officers reach the level of PB4 in 26 years whereas 100% IAS/IPS officers reach that level in 14 years.
There is now way the Chiefs must accept this. The bogey of CPOs/PMF is not to be considered and the Chiefs must now bypass channels if they are to be heard. Decency doesn’t pay.
WHATS HAPPENED TO THE SARDAR? CAT GOT HIS TONGUE – OR HIS FAMILY JOOLS? WHY THE SILENCE?
HE HAD THAT TWIT CHANDRASWAMY ON COMEDY TIME MAKING HILARIOUS RANTS ABOUT HOW IT IS DIFFICULT TO MAINTAIN BALANCE.FOR HIS LEVEL OF COMPETENCE EVEN PEEING MUST BE DIFFICULT.
well we can continue 2 loose cool as govt will NOT DO ANYTHING. task is to ACT NOW as if tehre is not tomorrow . as for PMF the lesser said the better it is. ITS being attacked by NAXALS so why should we say anything on that……
The IAS are crass practiseners of the "divide & rule" policy. Firstly they have created fissures and division within the "Indian Armed Forces" by dangerously splitting it into two paybands.And when the 'Indian Armed Forces' is unitedly trying to get this injustice undone they are trying to unleash the CPOs/PMFs onto it by bringing up frivolous issues.Dangerous to the guaranteers of external security(Indian Armed Forces) & Internal Security (CPOs & PMFs) the IAS is a grave threat to National Security.Friends,Indians & Countrymen see the writing on the wall before it is too late.
The IAS are crass practiseners of the "divide & rule" policy. Firstly they have created fissures and division within the "Indian Armed Forces" by dangerously splitting it into two paybands.And when the 'Indian Armed Forces' is unitedly trying to get this injustice undone they are trying to unleash the CPOs/PMFs onto it by bringing up frivolous issues.Dangerous to the guaranteers of external security(Indian Armed Forces) & Internal Security (CPOs & PMFs) the IAS is a grave threat to National Security.Friends,Indians & Countrymen see the writing on the wall before it is too late.
Can anybody spot a Babu in the country’s hour of need( Mumbai Taj for example)?
NO WAY!!!
They aren’t capable of anything exceptional and therefore thankfully stay away.
They could have been spotted, had somebody announced that PB-4 is being paid inside the Taj Mumbai.
(sadly you have to sacrifice your life for it.)
PB-4?
FROM THIS SARDAR?
PAPPU CAN DANCE SAALA….
but only to the tune of Sonia & Sushma Aunty
ON 7TH DEC ARMED FORCES FLAG DAY THIS YEAR LET US WEAR BLACK LAPEL FLAGS TO PROTEST THE SUBVERSION AND DEGRADATION OF THE ARMED FORCES AND VETERANS BY THE GOVT. AND THE BUREAUCRACY. IF THE CITIZENS OF THIS NATION WERE NOT BEING RHETORIC BUT SPOKE FROM THEIR HEARTS THEN LET THEM ALSO WEAR BLACK LAPEL FLAGS TO PROTEST THE DEGRADATION OF THE ARMED FORCES AND VETERANS BY THE GOVT OF THE DAY.
sushma nath ki supaari de do. Bhai log se baat chal rahi hai. usko tapka dalneka. PB-4 aajaenga……….
OUR GENERALS HAVE DEVELOPED COLD FEET. PHAT GAYEE? ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT. THEY WILL WRITE BOOKS ON HOW THE WAR WAS LOST. SOME VETERAN GENERALS WERE ALSO IN THE SELF PUBLICITY MODE. NOW THAT PEOPLE KNOW THEM THEY HAVE GONE INTO HIBERNATION. LT COLs – PB-4 – OROP – WAZZAT?
Abey Bose D.K. , General ki nahi Phati, Congress ki dhoti phatke Rumaal ho gayi hai. The only person in Congress who had the BALLS was Indira Gandhi, what an irony!!! Jyada phudak mat, tere ko bhi ghar me ghus ke tokhenge. Abey Inida ko chod, jis din Mumbai ka dimaag phir gaya na, wahi kaafi hai tumhare liye.
MNS Lt Cols are excluded from PB-4 on the insistence of the Army Chief. The COAS, Gen Deepak Kapoor wants to ensure Patient Care in the Army Medical Establishments by lowering the pay scales of MNS Officers. Read more at http://mnscorps.blogspot.com/
Please send her to saichen glacier for a weekend along with her kin and kith. Also ask her to take some oldies from paramilitary forces!